Discussion: Sexuality in GoW

[LegendMaker]

@TaliaParks

I was thinking “quit while I’m ahead”

I’ll let @Sirrian decide then.

He was always going to decide, whether anyone in particular asks him to or not. All the comments popping up time and time again along the lines of “this discussion went on long enough”, “let’s reach a consensus and end this” or “this thread should be locked” are out of place. In a discussion forum, this sort of behavior is called “mini-modding” and is largely frowned upon, often in breach of the ToS, and always unnecessary. If a thread needs to be moderated, the moderator will get to it. If someone feels the mod might have missed something they should look at, there’s a report feature for a reason. Beyond that, a forum works best when contributors simply contribute to the discussion, and leave the modding to the mods.

Also, no offense, but you happen to have created the spin-off thread we all continued our discussion in when a couple of self-appointed mini-mods were pushing us out of the thread in which it originally started. That doesn’t mean you own this topic. It’s our discussion.

Now, I’m well aware that a number of users of this particular forum are not really used to how a discussion forum normally works, and have a tendency to treat a thread as a chat room or a picture blog instead. Unfortunately, this forum is not moderated very actively (and doesn’t have a full-time community manager proper, sadly), and as a result those users were never steered in the right direction in that regard (except by your truly in a few posts, but I’m not a mod either, and even if I do my best to convey that message in a friendly, humorous way rather than throwing a hissy fit, it’ll still be perceived as patronizing). That’s why I contribute a lot less these days than I used to when the forum started, and I had even sort of given up on even reading this forum, honestly, until recently. I’d love for this to change, but I can’t do it on my own.

A thread like this is a huge step in the right direction for this forum, in my opinion. It’s been a really long time since a proper, elaborate, mostly civil discussion took place here, let alone on a sensitive topic. Its existence and continuation is not a threat to anyone, it’s in an adequate sub-category, it’s very active and teeming with quality posts. Also, the subject matter is a topic that has been relevant in the past, is relevant now, and will be relevant in the future. It can and should remain opened. Even if the current discussion eventually runs out of steam, it’ll bounce back when new troops are released.

Also, what @Lyya said.

@Robert

You are quite patronising and fairly annoying.

@Robert

You could do with a slap in the right direction.

Oh, so the gloves are off, huh? Fine. I’m sorry to say, but you’ve contributed very little to the actual discussion here, and a large number of your many, many posts in this thread have been more nuisance than contribution. I’m not sure why you feel this discussion needs you, but it’s clear that you don’t need it (you also yourself said you just don’t care, anyway). You’ve been pushing the exact “let’s shake on it and close the thread” agenda I denounced above for the longest time, despite multiple posters telling you it’s not welcomed. Could you please stop doing that? That would be much appreciated.

As for the blatant troll with the Uncle Scrooge avatar, I’ll do my best to ignore him for now.

[Robert]

Keep your panties on; youre starting to scare me.

I think youll find everyones contribution has been useless. This thread is going nowhere constructive.

[UKresistance]

Calling people a blatant troll is largely frowned upon, often in breach of the ToS, and always unnecessary.

[LostInLust]

I didnt read all of the posts. But the few I did read made me think of something. If ppl who play this game look on their troops somehow like on some sexual objects and sympathise with them this way, what it says of me if I like the most how Green Slime looks like? Oo

[LegendMaker]

@TaliaParks

You can totally be counter to an -ism, and “reverse whateverism” is rarely used. Because these are ideologies, the opposite of an -ism is usually another -ism.

Not necessarily. Take religious beliefs for instance: the commonly accepted term for someone who is completely devoid of them is an atheist, which is Latin for “without god”. From an atheist perspective, it means that others developed something that has nothing to do with you, you want no part in it whatsoever, but the very language still defines you by that. I always found this disturbing. Also, there’s the common “non-believer”. This applies to many -isms, actually.

@Spherix

Once again, I’d call the frequent conflicts of feminism a forest/trees issue. People on both sides focus on specific examples, when the problem is not with any specific example, but with the context as a whole. But people aren’t good at seeing the big picture. People on one side point out an example, and say “this is an example of the problem”, while the other side says “that isn’t a problem, it’s just one example”. And they’re both right, while being wrong at the same time, because they’re talking about trees when the issue is forests. So they fight to the death over individual trees, because each side thinks the other side won’t allow them to exist.

You could make the same argument for any societal, or just non-scientific topic, though, and more importantly, life is a succession of moments, and society is made of individuals. The big picture evolves, chaotically, from countless movements by all the little parts. It’s not just a perception. There’s a risk from focusing too much on the big picture, as well.

@Lyya

I actually really like that there’s a pretty healthy balance between male and female dragons. It doesn’t impact the gameplay in the slightest, but I like knowing that the devs acknowledge that (of these sentient beasts, at least) there are both genders, and formidable examples of both.

Some feel arbitrary to me. It’s not rare that a line of text shows up with “him” or “her” in it at the end of a game, and I scratch my head thinking “wait, what? the Chimera was meant to be male all along???”

Still, apart from the fact that your Hero cannot become a Hero-ine even if her gender is female (which I understand as a technical limitation), GoW has a better balance than a game like HS for instance. In HS, every single noun that should be feminized isn’t. The “Cult Master” is a woman, for instance…

[Jainus]

@Personette

So, @Jainus, when you say you don’t notice–maybe not? But maybe that kind of not-noticing-the-art is related to the fact that you think ‘a few more teenage boys’ could generate more revenue than women–half the actual population of the earth, many of whom are adults with disposable income or who control household expenditures and have been proven to play games, especially casual games. That whole market is invisible to you because you’re not noticing.

I never said I don’t notice. Of course I noticed - back with Atlanta in the first days of the game and every other mildly misogynistic cartoon since. I just said I don’t have a problem with it. I also never said that misrepresentation of sexuality, stereotyping females in fantasy art, etc, isn’t a problem in general - I agree it clearly is - just GoW is very far from being a serious offender on those scales, in my view.

I’ve reconsidered the (slightly flippant) point I made about the game icon - had forgotten @sirrian’s statements about the neutral stuff seeming to market better… (though I’d suggest that’s as much a coincidence based on the passing of time and word-of-mouth…)… Many voices above have reminded me of this, and other counter-arguments, so I take that back…

I am a (nearly) middle-aged male. I happen to quite like the ludicrously cartoony suggestive female artwork. Atlanta was (and still is) one of my favourite cards - I think she looks cool - even if she could never realistically draw a bow. She also hits a sweet spot for me as rogues/hunters have long been favoured RPG characters, and my long-time high level WoW character was a female elf hunter. But the art… is harmless, in my view, really… As I say, I kinda like the least appropriate ones… but it’s a personal preference, no doubt guided by what few hormones I retain in my ageing frame… and I’d like to think I have sufficient intellect to understand that these aren’t healthy or fair representations of women - and I appreciate that many people find it touches a nerve in relation to wider issues.

[Robert]

We all know youre a boob man @Jainus!!

[Spherix]

@Jainus

I’d like to think I have sufficient intellect to understand that these aren’t healthy or fair representations of women

How these depictions affect you, as an intelligent, mature, adult, male isn’t really the primary concern. It’s how they affect young, still-developing minds, male and female, who don’t have the experience to know what is or isn’t a healthy or fair representation of women. Although some people grow beyond their early, formative experiences, question and reevaluate what they’ve been taught, most don’t. Control the minds of children, and you determine the future of the human race.

The other concern is about whether adult women feel welcome and equal, and that the environment isn’t fundamentally hostile to them and their interests. Everyone wants to feel like they matter, like their voices are heard, that they’re represented, that they’re people, and not just objects that other people act upon and manipulate for their own benefit. For women to be constantly told that beauty and sexual availability are not only the most important traits for them to have, but often that those are the only traits they could have that matter, is discouraging, even when it isn’t true. Just because some people can and do proceed to rise above the constraints of their environment doesn’t make the environment acceptable.

Once again, this doesn’t mean that “ludicrously cartoony suggestive female artwork” is itself a problem that needs to be eliminated. It just shouldn’t be the only thing that exists, the only representation of women in the game. Large breasts are not a problem that should be universally replaced with small breasts – doing so would be making the exact same mistake as giving all the women large breasts in the first place. It’s the conformity that’s the problem, the lack of variety, not any particular trait. Breasts are not good or bad, it’s communicating to people that they should all be the same size that’s bad.

[htismaqe]

The problem here is whether or not this would present a financial problem for gaming companies, and Gems of War in particular.

Let’s face it, these stereotypes aren’t limited to this game, or games in general. It’s nearly universal across ALL media, especially in the United States.

It’s a much bigger problem than just games and I’m not sure it’s realistic or fair to expect them to try to protest a much larger cultural phenomenon, especially if it’s going to hurt them financially.

[Lyya]

I don’t see this as some sort of revolution, more a desire to gradually see a bit more diversity in the female population going forward.

But let’s assume for a moment that a “phenomenon” is called for. The same argument could be made of any company risking losing revenue to cater to an unknown audience, and taken to an extreme would be a call to inaction across the industry.

In my mind, there is already significant progress, when we can have discussions like this and see reason. And there were several examples of games mentioned above that have defied the prevailing trend and depicted females as actual people and have seen (hopefully) enough positive response to keep it up in future releases.

[TaliaParks]

@LegendMaker

@TaliaParks

I was thinking “quit while I’m ahead”

I’ll let @Sirrian decide then.

Also, no offense, but you happen to have created the spin-off thread we all continued our discussion in when a couple of self-appointed mini-mods were pushing us out of the thread in which it originally started. That doesn’t mean you own this topic. It’s our discussion.

Lock this up and throw away the key @Sirrian, @Nimhain, @Alpheon.

This discussion has become repetitive and this will only get much, much worse.

Don’t make me kill this thread the old-fashioned way.

[Aelthwyn]

The discussion has so far been quite civile and well argumented.
Why should it be closed?
Who are you to ask for it? Who are you to pretend to be allowed to kill the thread?
If you disagree with what is being told here or if you are not interested, just ignore the thread.

[Robert]

@TaliaParks

kill this thread the old-fashioned way.

Have you still got that skipping rope one?

[TaliaParks]

@Robert

@TaliaParks

kill this thread the old-fashioned way.

Have you still got that skipping rope one?

I got everything you can imagine

[LostInLust]

Some ppl just have to get over themselves I guess…

@Aelthwyn

If you disagree with what is being told here or if you are not interested, just ignore the thread.

And maybe… he just doesnt understand what the talk is all about, you know, for some things you need to grow up mentally.

[TaliaParks]

@LostInLust

And maybe… he just doesnt understand what the talk is all about, you know, for some things you need to grow up mentally.

Because I’m a man, I know. I cry every day waking up with all these thoughts of oppressing women. When I look at my wife, she’s just a living sex toy, not the PARTNER, the EQUAL, the MOTHER of my children.

Give me a break! These conversations always break down into this crap. I moved this thread to not spam the Official News, I have given multiple coherent arguments WITHIN the conversation. I am MORE than 100% capable of discussing this issue intelligently.

But guess what? THAT isn’t what anyone is interested in anymore. NEITHER AM I NOW!

You all want a piece of the old Talia, now you get it. Blame this asshat if you don’t like it, because I don’t care what you think.

[LegendMaker]

Okay, then… Your “I’ve changed my ways” play would have been short lived.

That behavior is unacceptable. I’m reporting you both.

As explained, this thread is not your toy and it’s not up to you to break it when you please. It’s also a discussion on a serious topic and NOT about you.

The grown-ups would like to keep having their conversation. If you’re not happy about it, then go play in your room. And please take your spammer friend with you.

This should be an interesting choice for the mods to make, and we’ll see if there’s hope for this forum going forward or if a few immature users really control it and can command the mods to close a thread when they please or not.

[LostInLust]

@TaliaParks

I cry every day waking up with all these thoughts of oppressing women. When I look at my wife, she’s just a living sex toy, not the PARTNER, the EQUAL, the MOTHER of my children.

Just dont listen to the voices!

@TaliaParks

I have given multiple coherent arguments WITHIN the conversation. I am MORE than 100% capable of discussing this issue intelligently.

Thats a serious business

@TaliaParks

You all want a piece of the old Talia, now you get it. Blame this asshat if you don’t like it

I have no clue who is old Talia or new Talia or chumbawamba Talia =))

@TaliaParks

because I don’t care what you think.

And what on Earth makes you think I care what you think ? (rethorical q)

[Sirrian]

I would suggest that anyone who is no longer interested in this thread move along and leave it to any folks who may still be interested in the conversation.

Hijacking conversations that no longer interest you in order to get them closed kind of annoys me. I’ve just banned a half dozen spam bots, so I have an itchy banning finger right now.

[Jainus]

@Sirrian

so I have an itchy banning finger right now

Do just be careful what you touch…