Do you agree with the change to the Sunspear class?

Let’s not overlook that the new heatwave trait (+2 mana on red) looks remarkably similar to the lvl 70 tree perk “firebringer” which gives bonus mana on red. The official pinnochio party line is/was that the trait 3 permastorm and the firestorm at the start of battle were practically the same thing (only an idiot would not be able to distinguish that they are most definitely not).
But the “solution” leaves the trait 2/tree 5 option (identical) in situ and THEN adds a third trait which is far more similar to a pre existing tree perk than the so-called “original conflict” ever was. That’s how rushed this was and be absolutely clear that you, I and everybody else is being lied to yet again regarding the true motive. I am still waiting for the links and screenshots of the complaints about sunspear but suddenly the devs are nowhere to be seen. Speaks volumes don’t you think?

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Firebringer and new Heatwave are added so you get +3 so it’s fine.
Firestarter was strictly useless compared to old Heatwave.

So traits that are strictly useless compared to a hero’s talents should be fixed?


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I was answering about the specific Firebringer/new Heatwave.
I totally agree with you for this trait is completely useless :wink: .

But as said elsewhere, my guess is that Heatwave has been modified because of the too powerful synergy between old Heatwave and Phoenica. And as devs cannot come here with this argument, they prefer to use a minor request (apparently some players voiced about Firebringer being useless).
They could have modify Fireproof at the same time :roll_eyes:.

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I hadn’t used sunspear in a month but hate the change to the class… as if I needed a red team, it was the choice. Now there is none.

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This is all speculation. It doesn’t make sense to nerf a class because 1 troop was too powerful. They could just nerf the troop and there would have been much less outcry.

Edit - Speculation - If it’s true that Phoencia was too powerful, the troop should be addressed and not the class. They could have looked at the damage, synergy that relies on storm, many multiple ways to address that issue with the troop itself. Instead they took a sledgehammer to the game and its player base, instead of implementing a well thought troop design change.

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They seem to be reverting the change:

It is now up to the playerbase to believe/forgive/forget the Devs’ actions.
:vulcan_salute:

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unforgiven -what else is there to say

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Regrettably, seeing the periodicity of these incidents, that may not be the main takeaway for most.
:sweat_smile: :vulcan_salute:

So many elements worth remembering though :roll_eyes:

And current evidenced percentages are 95% did not find the change appealing: surely illustrative of how in touch this developer is with the playerbase.

So worth reiterating:

:vulcan_salute:

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I’m all for conspiracy theories.
But the idea that they kept quiet about the change.
Just so they could go back and recode it again less than 24 hours later. Is Idiocracy at it’s finest.

They honestly thought they were doing something good. They were wrong. They are fixing it. Accept that they are fixing it. Move on. :grinning:

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If they did (agree to disagree, unless things like the Explore GUI are also them trying to do something good :stuck_out_tongue:) that would be highly illustrative of how much they know about GoW gameplay.

Either way, worth remembering.
:blush: :pray: :vulcan_salute:

The biggest difference between Sunspear change and the GUI is…
The devs are aware of what players want for the most part. But can’t just change the game all the time based on opinions.
But in this case they thought they were giving players something that they wanted. A buff in fact. And were shock to hear people thought it was a nerf.
So in the case where they thought they were providing a buff. They were happy to “nerf” the buff back to the original settings. :man_shrugging:

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I cannot believe this has happened.

I honestly do not believe that the designers have any real understanding of how this game is played. I’m sorry, but how can I come to any other conclusion?

To try and be constructive:

  1. The reason given is completely spurious. There are literally at least half a dozen duplications/over-writes between traits and talents, and even more between different talents. This is simply a consequence of the way talent trees are set up, and we work around it. Therefore, logically, this is NOT the true reason for this particular change.

  2. Having a Red Storm at the start of a battle and at the start of each turn are NOT the same thing. There are certain occasions – particularly on defence – where both take effect in a useful way. Therefore, the complainants did not understand how the game works, and the people who responded to them should have pointed out these scenarios.

  3. There are (were) three uses for a storm on every turn:
    a) To negate a storm on turn 1 on a defender’s team.
    b) To extend a storm for a team that needs it but struggles to get mana in the first four turns.
    c) To counter troops like Lyrasza who also cause a storm on every turn. (This is something that’s going to get worse.)
    d) To recover the advantage from Mountain Crusher, Valravens, etc.

These are all excellent and valid uses, and none were unbalanced. Red was a particularly good colour for this (Brown might have been better, but red has some useful synergy.) The Yellow from Stormcaller is not especially useful, because there are very few teams that can be built to synergise.

So essentially, we have now lost our counter to all of the above in most cases.

  1. The Phoenicia quick-farming team for Explore D4-5 is no longer viable. This makes it impossible to simultaneously balance Gnome farming and Medal farming on a Vault weekend. We are back to just two options: Rowanne on D2-3, and Urskaya on D12 with Scorpius. Removing options – when there are so few – is dumb design.

These comments, while they might sound harsh, are not intended as insults. However, pointing out people’s faults and short-comings is something that will usually be taken personally. Unfortunately, I don’t have the means (ie: face-to-face discussion) or the time to soften the blow or be properly diplomatic.

This is not a good change. There have, in fact, been many very poor design decisions in this game. On top of that, whoever is designing the GUI and UX seems to miss some really basic stuff. I have – along with many others – repeatedly tried to point out and explain these fundamental flaws, with little impact. I do not know if this is happening because of time pressure, because the details are not reaching the people who need to hear them, or because they really aren’t very good at UI/UX design. I sincerely hope it is not the latter, but the constant introduction of new flaws along the same lines suggests otherwise.

Returning to the Sunspear change and mounting game mechanics design errors, the evidence all strongly suggests that those responsible do not truly understand how the game is played. In a way, this is totally forgivable, because they have jobs – they don’t have the time or reason to grind the game. Yet they have designed a game that requires grinding. Therefore, the only sensible way to understand the game is to talk to, question and listen to the people who DO play the game the most and who do understand how it works. Listening to the majority will NEVER achieve this. Volume can sometimes (and only sometimes) point in the direction of problems. But only experienced players can truly evaluate if those complaints are reasonable, and whether the solutions make sense. In other words, you also have a communications and feedback filtering problem.

Incidentally, I do not consider myself an experienced player in most areas of the game. My team-building skills are poor, for example. I do have strengths that I believe are valuable. But even I apparently understand more about how teams work (essentially from listening to those more capable than myself) than whoever made this ridiculous complaint, as well as those who incomprehensibly made the change. I’m truly flabbergasted.

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PS: I’ll admit I’m coming into this without reading every post.

If the trait is going to be reverted, thank God!
(Looks like it has now been reverted – thank you.)

Nonetheless, every word I wrote is, I believe, still true.

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You’re single handedly responsible for guiding “thousands” of people leveling this class? Ego much? SMH…

He streams, and so has the numbers of viewers as a datapoint he can point to :man_shrugging:

Keylime isn’t saying his streamers do everything he says. He’s saying he has a lot of viewers, and many if them watch in order to have advice for progression.

He had suggested leveling sunspear, which probably did impact a lot of people’s choices. Hence the guilt even though it wasn’t his fault, and just one more reason the reversion was a good call :+1:

I don’t mean any disrespect to the community. I’m extremely happy the devs listened and changed it back! I’m just not a fan of his channel along with a lot of the advice he gives. I found myself counting the number of times he uses the word admittedly more than anything else so I unsubbed. I personally prefer Tacet or Loot Wizard but That’s just me.

Keylime’s Sunspear class video has 2.7k views, so he literally recommended maxing the class to thousands of people.

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@B0NES71 I can understand that, and know that I end up using specific phrases way more than I should.

And I’m not saying I’m single handedly responsible for people leveling Sunspear ever, just anecdotally when I see people applying for my family of guilds it is extremely common for people to have Titan and Sunspear as their highest classes (the two which I rated as the best 2 in my class tierlist) as well as knowing that I don’t really see anyone else going hard for Sunspear in general.

But definitely appreciate your input, it’s a reminder I need to get better at not using those repeat phrases.

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Na bro you don’t need to get better at anything. You’re obviosly doing great. I was just being a grumpy old man. Sometimes I let the littlest things bug me when they shouldn’t and that’s on me, not you. You keep doing you bro. I apologize if I offended you or anyone else. Take care…

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