Best way for lower level players to grow post-1.0.8

[Machiknight]

trading will never be part of the game. It’s totally not something in the model.

I do agree that grinding needs to be easier, and have said so since before the bump from 10 levels to 15. Slow tedious soul grinding is antithetical to making the largest target player base (90% under 100) have fun and feel competitive.

Traitstones need a more targeted way to grind out. If you could alter your PvP matches to only target specific cities that would certainly help.

I also think too many traitstones are needed post troop, but that is another discussion.

[Jainus]

You get your views, I get mine. It’s interesting to hear such contrary views. I’ve never seen time spent in this game as an investment. Don’t patronise me just because you do. I haven’t topped any beat’em’up charts, kudos to you if you indeed have. But I’ve been playing and designing RPGs and card games for 25+ years, and in a free forum like this I get my say too. You probably won’t like it.

Much of that last post is judging my views in equally sweeping ways. Let’s disagree civilly please.

[Machiknight]

Let’s try and stay on topic. Perhaps we should make another post where we can argue to our hearts content, but this particular topic should be for giving tips to lower level players.

[brucelei]

@Machiknight

trading will never be part of the game. It’s totally not something in the model.

It’s not something included in the model but it works and would actually generate more money and increase the player base in the process. But I’m very aware that the dev’s are pretty narrow minded in their theory they would lose money by doing that even if it’s been shown numerous times to work it’s a typical thought process.

@Machiknight

Traitstones need a more targeted way to grind out. If you could alter your PvP matches to only target specific cities that would certainly help.

kingdom challenges are a targeted way to grind them. Not the best but it’s going to narrow it down to what that kingdom drops and possibly celestials. I’ve gotten a couple from questing so it stands to reason I could do the same there. I was thinking that maybe the khetar challenge just against allistair would be a quick easy way to farm and try for celestial.

@Machiknight

I also think too many traitstones are needed post troop, but that is another discussion.

Agreed a bit too much diversity among the stones making it more difficult.

[Dorgath]

@brucelei

Yet sirrian repeatedly points out 90% of the players are in the struggle zone.

I don’t believe he said this. He said 90% of the players are below <100 and use Treasure Maps (or 90% of the players who use Treasure Maps are < 100, slight difference). But he never said they were in the “struggle zone”.

@brucelei

They’ve ignored me but listen to admitted free players.

Not sure how you’re quantifying this: are you expecting a direct reply to one of your posts/emails? based on direct replies to other “free players” posts?

They’ve already said they read the threads on the forums but don’t necessarily reply in each for various reasons.

[brucelei]

@Dorgath

I don’t believe he said this. He said 90% of the players are below <100 and use Treasure Maps (or 90% of the players who use Treasure Maps are < 100, slight difference). But he never said they were in the “struggle zone”.

Ver batum no. He said 90% are below 100. I said below 100 is the struggle zone and I"m there.

@Dorgath

Not sure how you’re quantifying this: are you expecting a direct reply to one of your posts/emails? based on direct replies to other “free players” posts?

I see direct replies often. I’ve raised good points and been ignored. I’ve asked questions that directly effect their pocket book as to whether they intend to add features that will determine if I play the game seriously and support them or if I pack up cancel and potentially cancel credit card payments based on some things I’ve seen that make me wonder if I want to support this company. In a about 6 weeks of play on the app I’ve spent more than several people that have played from the start and I can continue that spending. I simply want to know if my funds will be put in the direction I want. In a free to play game I’m essentially a stake holder by supporting it. Similar concept to a kickstarter.

[Jainus]

@brucelei

I simply want to know if my funds will be put in the direction I want. In a free to play game I’m essentially a stake holder by supporting it. Similar concept to a kickstarter.

You are a stakeholder, yes, but as a consumer, not as an owner/shareholder. You’ve put money into the game to purchase a (digital) product, not as a form of funding - you bought something and got something in consideration for your cash. Us consumers are of course a key stakeholder for the game (as with any business), so we’d hope that management take our needs into account, but we have no right to demand a direction or action. If you want that, go grant @Sirrian some funding as equity and if you invest enough you may be able to influence decision-making (actually I don’t know how this venture is incorporated and as 505 are the publisher I suspect it’s more complicated than just an OMB - and it certainly isn’t an open venture like Kickstarter).

@brucelei

In a about 6 weeks of play on the app I’ve spent more than several people that have played from the start

Yes, very probably, and by the sound of it much more than probably a huge proportion of players. But… have you calculated what proportion of the game unit’s income you’ve generated for them. As there are very many players, I suspect your proportion is actually rather small - as it will be for any single player unless you are putting in $10,000 or more. Who knows. Not intended as a put down - any contribution is valuable and if no one did the game wouldn’t last long - but some perspective please.

@brucelei

I see direct replies often

Yes, the devs do put quite some time into this forum and do interact with the players. I’m sure they’ll respond if/when they feel the need to, but please also note it’s the holiday season and service/staff levels will be lower at the moment. Keep up the civil contribution and sharing ideas and I guess someone will respond - @Sirrian has been doing this a long time, so will have his own views, and I know loves to debate…

@brucelei

I’ve raised good points and been ignored

You’ve raised some new ideas and provoked many here to try and look at things differently. I’m not sure I’d call them all good ideas personally, but that’s why this is a forum and debate is welcome. I don’t think you’re being deliberately ignored - just the devs don’t always have time to respond on everything, especially in the last week or so.

[Dorgath]

@brucelei

Ver batum no. He said 90% are below 100. I said below 100 is the struggle zone and I"m there.

That’s false logic? statement then and/or putting words into someone’s mouth. Just because you believe below 100 is a struggle zone does NOT mean Sirrian said so.

@brucelei

I see direct replies often. I’ve raised good points and been ignored.

Did you see where he posted they read all threads but don’t have time to reply?

Frankly, the expectation that you need to be responded to is unsettling and gives the impression that you deserve some “entitlement” or special status. There are tons of other posts by players asking questions and not getting all upset when they’re not answered or responded to. I’m not sure why you believe you’re different, aside from some status as a “paying customer” (which again, multitudes of other players fall under).

[Machiknight]

Let’s not devolve into attacking here guys, lets try to focus on the topic thanks.

[Jainus]

Fair enough. No ‘attack’ was intended and I apologise to @brucelei if it felt that way. Perhaps we can debate funding and business models in a different thread.

[brucelei]

@Jainus

You are a stakeholder, yes, but as a consumer, not as an owner/shareholder. You’ve put money into the game to purchase a (digital) product, not as a form of funding - you bought something and got something in consideration for your cash. Us consumers are of course a key stakeholder for the game (as with any business), so we’d hope that management take our needs into account, but we have no right to demand a direction or action. If you want that, go grant @Sirrian some funding as equity and if you invest enough you may be able to influence decision-making (actually I don’t know how this venture is incorporated and as 505 are the publisher I suspect it’s more complicated than just an OMB - and it certainly isn’t an open venture like Kickstarter).

No but in a f2p format it’s more so than a normal format. I have every right to make demands as a consumer. You’re nuts if you think otherwise. I also have every right to demand a response regarding concerns but they have the right to refuse and I have the right to then pull all my funding and the funding of top guild and others. These are all rights.

@Jainus

Yes, very probably, and by the sound of it much more than probably a huge proportion of players. But… have you calculated what proportion of the game unit’s income you’ve generated for them. As there are very many players, I suspect your proportion is actually rather small - as it will be for any single player unless you are putting in $10,000 or more. Who knows. Not intended as a put down - any contribution is valuable and if no one did the game wouldn’t last long - but some perspective please.

No I haven’t but I’ve requested the data to allow me to do so. I’ve compared what I see and know to dev friends and games I’ve played. This game isn’t in the top 10 in-app purchases and I read somebody said they don’t see it top 150. That tells me it’s not making the money of a model used by CoC or rage of bahamut which is where I point to as success stories. Rage spent months or years in the top 10 and replaced itself with a clone game based on marvel comics. It works even if you don’t agree with my views they work they generate profit and I can point to working models as examples. You tend to just toss out your opinion without backing it up in this area.

@Jainus

Yes, the devs do put quite some time into this forum and do interact with the players. I’m sure they’ll respond if/when they feel the need to, but please also note it’s the holiday season and service/staff levels will be lower at the moment. Keep up the civil contribution and sharing ideas and I guess someone will respond - @Sirrian has been doing this a long time, so will have his own views, and I know loves to debate…

I’ve attempted to debate and he’s not responded.

@Dorgath

That’s false logic? statement then and/or putting words into someone’s mouth. Just because you believe below 100 is a struggle zone does NOT mean Sirrian said so.

I didn’t say he said so. Nor did my post in any way imply it. I and others have pointed out that the recent changes make things difficult for new players. This very post is about that. Sirrian hasn’t commented on that to my knowledge but he has said 90% are sub 100 which would imply heavily they are newer players since it doesn’t take a ton of time or effort to get there.

@Dorgath

Frankly, the expectation that you need to be responded to is unsettling and gives the impression that you deserve some “entitlement” or special status. There are tons of other posts by players asking questions and not getting all upset when they’re not answered or responded to. I’m not sure why you believe you’re different, aside from some status as a “paying customer” (which again, multitudes of other players fall under).

I’m american of course i have entiltement issues. If it unsettles you then well don’t know what to tell you but I’ve raised numerous good points and have a long history that puts me in a position to know, and offer more advice than the majority here. I’m a LONG TIME top/professional player across many games. You may not agree that means my opinion carries more weight than yours but the fact is son I’m a professional and you’re at best an hobbyist when it comes to gaming. People like jainus and sirrian design games and people like me break them. We come in we see the loop holes and exploits to the system and we go at them hard. We are critical in ruining the fun of other players and at the same time increasing it by forcing change.

I’ll continue to say I’m not upset that I’m not responded to. I expect it because of my view of the company thus far. I’m pointing it out. You seem to be misreading or reading too much into what I say. I’d suggest you just ignore my posts if at all possible because you’re clearly getting the wrong impression.

[Jainus]

Now that Bruce’s rights are clear, anyone got anything to add on the original topic?

I am not in a great position to comment - the advice in the first few posts sounds sensible.

My only advice is for players to hang in there - and those that can enjoy the game should do so - the game has a good record so far of adapting to feedback and balancing the economics - if things continue to feel hard then they are likely to improve again. At least I hope so.

[Dorgath]

Look, I agree that everyone has their own views and what they feel what they’re “entitled” to and what they (think) their rights are and cause and effect. I know people have been around a long time; so have I. Not necessarily to “break” games (although I have been a bug-finder on a couple published games) but yes, to play and enjoy them - if you want to label that as a “hobbyist”, that’s fine with me.

I will call out blatant falsehoods which is: you did say that Sirrian said it;

@brucelei

Yet sirrian repeatedly points out 90% of the players are in the struggle zone.

Which he absolutely did not. He didn’t even say treasure hunter players are in a struggle zone to make that leap. So if you make this statement and believe it, it makes everything preceding it less believable.

That’s all, Happy New Year, see you next week

[Sirrian]

Hey folks,

Thought I’d clear up a couple of things in this thread.

TL;DR: Just covering a few misconceptions about games & F2P (in particular top-grossing lists & trading)

1. You’re not in the top 10/50/150 top-grossing games… OMG! You are losing money and unsuccessful!

That’s actually NOT how the top grossing games work. Note the name: “Top GROSSING Games”.

The F2P business model has 2 parts to the equation:

Part 1 involves INFLOW… that’s the part you hear a lot about - the amount of money a game generates, and some of the numbers for some games are truly impressive. If this is high, you make the Top Grossing Games list.

Part 2 is the OUTFLOW, and the 2 main parts to this are Support Costs and User Acquisition. Support cost is obvious - that’s just how much us devs need to buy pizza, beer, and clean shirts. User Acquisition is often overlooked though. Mobile games acquire players by spending ad money to get clicks and installs. And lot of very high-grossing games churn through their player-base very quickly, hence the need to keep doing more and more acquisition. And it’s EXPENSIVE - think DOLLARS per install!

So, the summary here is some games which are very high-grossing are also spending huge chunks of their income acquiring new users. In fact some games that spike high on the charts might actually LOSE money. The trick is to try and push them up there and hope they stick.

Gems of War is NOT one of these games!

In actual fact, what is MORE important from a long-term perspective is how long players stick around (along with how much a player spends of course… no use hiding the fact… we need to make money!)

In short, why aren’t we up in the top 10/50/150? We don’t spend tons of money advertising. We may do this in the future sometime, but for now we’re content tuning the game to make sure it’s first and foremost a great experience that people want to stick around and play (and we CAN still do much better there, I know!)

2. Trading is the solution

Now I have a very open mind about all potential features of the game, but I am highly sceptical of a Trading feature. Most recent F2P games with collection mechanics, which are successful, (e.g. Hearthstone, Summers War, Puzzle & Dragon, et al.) have been shying away from this feature, because the numbers we’ve seen mark it as too risky to the game economy.

When you look at successful mobile TCG games that use trading, I think you’ll find most of them got into the space early (e.g. Rage of Bahamut), and they were rewarded for being first, rather than for a specific feature.

As a player, I completely understand the desire to trade cards, but I think there might be other ways to scratch that itch (e.g. Hearthstone’s Dust & Crafting system), and we’ll get to them in time. But our main priorities right now are:

• Better PvP
• Better Heroes
• Making Guilds super-exciting

[Machiknight]

Man this is great stuff, thanks for letting us know!

It’s great to know that your user base is so dedicated.

I think trading was brought up by that one guy who shall not be named. Trading is a horrible idea for this game. Maybe if there are close to a thousand cards it might be useful, but not now.

What I want to see is something (new game type, method of collecting resources etc) geared toward the high end player. Maybe an arena with huge rewards that costs gems to enter, or something that makes us 10% keep being able to grind and feel accomplished.

[killerman3333]

i am not sure if it was me but if it was me who suggested it first i am sorry i just wanted to get cards more easily. Also i like the current priorities you guys have. Can’t wait to see to see which of the priorities we will see executed in 3 months time. Someone wake me up when September ends ok?

[Zelfore]

Love the input, Sirrian! I’ve pretty much felt the importance of longevity since starting the game.

I do feel bad I’ve yet to spend anything on it, which is why I try to make up for that with my presence on the forums. Helping newcomers, explaining mechanics, etc. Small consolation, but I do what I can!

@killerman3333

i am not sure if it was me but if it was me who suggested it first i am sorry i just wanted to get cards more easily. Also i like the current priorities you guys have. Can’t wait to see to see which of the priorities we will see executed in 3 months time. Someone wake me up when September ends ok?

Don’t worry about it, making the game TCG over CCG has been suggested since it’s likely creation. We all want a faster way to collecting that one or two cards we need instead of playing RNG. But hey, it’s gotten you to stick around, hasn’t it?

I believe Better Heroes is the main focus presently, with Better PvP tailing close behind. Improving Guilds is in third place, but that’s not a bad place to be considering all the other features people want implemented.

[Elendil52]

In an attempt to bring this back to the topic… This week brings a change to Darkstone–its kingdom bonus is now Magic instead of Armor, making it only the second kingdom like this, meaning it should be an early priority for maxing after Karakoth (which you can get much earlier in the game). It also, like Karakoth, tends to be heavier on souls than glory, which fits nicely into the plan I originally outlined.

[Dorgath]

Yep! I just finished leveling Karakoth over the weekend and was mulling over which of the Attack kingsdoms to work on next, but now I definitely know which one to go for!