# Updated Mab in PvP graphs **URL:** \ **Category:** Gameplay Chat (General)\ **Created:** [May 27, 2016, 7:29am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504 "2016-05-27T07:29:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ashasekayi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/ashasekayi/32/61090_2.png) [@Ashasekayi](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Ashasekayi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/61 "2016-05-27T15:52:59Z")
I think that is a good and equitable solution @Jainus. ---
**Author:** ![Mufasha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/mufasha/32/1327_2.png) [@Mufasha](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Mufasha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/62 "2016-05-27T15:53:29Z")
I found happiness with the new PvP system when I realized how much work would be required to get to the top, how little sleep (I reset at 3 am) I would get, and how sad the rewards are for people not in the top twenty. Now I am very happy farming the the ranked system and enjoying the game (minus mawmeggedon) like I did pre-patch. ---
**Author:** ![Gouki](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/gouki/32/22405_2.png) [@Gouki](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Gouki)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/63 "2016-05-27T15:55:04Z")
While i don’t want to defend Maw, and am sure the Devs already plan how they approach this issue, aside from Maw being arguably too powerful, it is also the best way to deal with defending Gorgothas, which is most definitely part of the reason why many players invade with a Maw, and as people currently defend with their invade teams, why even more people defend with one now. Granite Skin sure was the reason why i picked up Maw. ---
**Author:** ![Machiknight](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/machiknight/32/6108_2.png) [@Machiknight](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Machiknight)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/64 "2016-05-27T16:02:30Z")
> [@Jainus](#): > > We could do 0-100, 101-200, 201-350, 351-500, 501-750, 751-1001, for example, The problem that exists with this idea, is the same problem that has been plaguing matchmaking since the beginning. The whole reason why there is the level 200 hump is because there weren’t enough players amongst all of the different levels for matchmaking to allow for this kind of banding even within just the standard PVP system. I don’t see how this issue has been resolved in any way that would allow for bending for the leaderboard either. Unless, there is significantly more players now then there were at the time that that was talked about. ---
**Author:** ![Machiknight](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/machiknight/32/6108_2.png) [@Machiknight](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Machiknight)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/65 "2016-05-27T16:07:37Z")
> [@Gouki](#): > > Maw being arguably too powerful I feel like we should separate the maw conversation into its own post, but I will respond here regardless. I do think that this troop needs to have some kind of change with its third trait. I actively avoid fighting them when I see them on defense teams simply because in the few times that I have I’ve had its third trait go off enough that I have absolutely no interest in fighting it again. There is nothing that is more annoying than having your troops devoured within one or two turns, even before the maws spell can even go off. Especially since combo breaker is gone. I like the idea that was talked about before about making it similar to the Archer trait, but even then I see it happening too often. I’m also a fan of making cards that have abilities to counter cards instead of just changing other cards, for example if we were to change all big huge and immense cards to be immune to devour that would be a great counter to the maw, and would greatly diversify the amount of tank troops that we see at the front of the line. It wouldn’t just be Gorgotha, Gorgotha, Gorgotha. I also don’t really think that Mercy should be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Mufasha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/mufasha/32/1327_2.png) [@Mufasha](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Mufasha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/66 "2016-05-27T16:10:07Z")
Best solution I see is to have the ranks also mimic the ring the bell reward of the tier system. Hit first, get reward, go do other things with your actual life. The different times zones and player abilities means that the top 10 are going to be filled with people who gave up sleeping for a week playing keep away with first place. But if they did that I am sure the rewards would lower. ---
**Author:** ![Machiknight](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/machiknight/32/6108_2.png) [@Machiknight](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Machiknight)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/67 "2016-05-27T16:12:33Z")
I would also like to point out this post which I just saw, that has a great maw counter deck! Thanks @psychetruth! [Ultimate Maw/Mercy Combo Counter-Build](http://community.gemsofwar.com/t/ultimate-maw-mercy-combo-counter-build/7531) ---
**Author:** ![Razlath](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razlath/32/659_2.png) [@Razlath](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razlath)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/68 "2016-05-27T16:28:29Z")
Without an energy mechanic to limit the number of games played the leaderboard will always be primarily determined by playtime. This was the problem with this concept from the point it was first discussed and was asked about when first demoed. The personal leaderboards are just as meaningless as a skill measure as the guild leaderboards. They are both measures of time spent playing more than any other measure. The only thing that keeps the guild leaderboards appearing to be “correct” is that they are lifetime and not cleared periodically so they reward an “older” player more than a “newer” one. There really is no solution with the current framework we have. The system is set up to reward time spent playing beyond any other metric. Even if matches were worth exactly the same amount (and I am not convinced they are not based on feedback I have seen) between a lvl 100 and a lvl 1000 the driving metric would still be time spent playing. Because of the luck mechanic of GoW a true competitive leaderboard would be difficult. You would have to limit the number of battles fought, disallow any form of skipping, and ensure “relative” difficulty was maintained. The first is completely possible, the second would annoy peeps who didn’t want to play against certain teams, and the last is so incredibly complex it is basically impossible with a game so heavily based on luck. Better to just accept the pvp leaderboards for what they are exactly the same thing as the guild leaderboards. A measure of time spent contributing to a goal, nothing more. -Razlath ---
**Author:** ![Grundulum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grundulum](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Grundulum)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/69 "2016-05-27T16:57:36Z")
> [@yonizaf](#): > > ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/2X/6/60dfdbf67bd656ca9b77bde6e2616461012e561c.jpg) I think – and have said elsewhere – that the game is subtracting PVP points when your defense team _wins_. Look at those same three players you mentioned, all with similar win counts and points. The lower level player has radically more defense wins than the two 1000+ players. If I am right, then they would have subtracted off a lot of points from his/her total, and that same number of wins should be hundreds of points higher. ---
**Author:** ![Personette](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/personette/32/3845_2.png) [@Personette](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Personette)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/70 "2016-05-27T17:04:40Z")
> [@Darkness](#): > > What he’s saying is that it is easier to get to high ranks in the PVP leaderboard for lower level players than high level players because high level players appear to be getting fewer PVP points for each match they win. > > He’s stating (and I agree with that statement) that no matter what level you are (or what team you use to fight the battle), winning a match against a specific player’s defense team (identical team!) should result in an equal amount of PVP points no matter what level you are. I’m not going to get mad if the higher level players start getting more points, but there is a problem with this argument. You’re saying “each win should be worth the same points” but then… > [@Jainus](#): > > I would not be happy with that win rate, given my resources, and my commitments to contribute to my guild… Worth the same number of points even though the higher level players will be playing the same match with better resources and expecting a much better win rate. A lowbie playing against a high ranked player is going to LOSE more matches. So average out the wins against the losses and we’re not really earning more points against the same teams. > [@Darkness](#): > > Then how do you explain the current number 2 and 3 on the leaderboard?2 = Tsunakun (level 121), 7181 PVP points, with 157 invade wins3 - techn9neee (level 1000) 7127 PVP points, with 268 invade wins > > Or number 5 and 6 on the current leaderboard?5 = Udachnic (level 158), 6256 PVP points, with 153 invade wins6 = Ozornoi Veterok (level 1000), 5357 points, with 175 invade wins Though I will admit that this seems quite odd. > [@Jainus](#): > > I didn’t say ‘low level nobodies’ and that certainly wasn’t the tone I meant, sorry if you felt that way… I’m not sure there’s a nice way to say (effectively) “What are _these people_ doing on _my_ leaderboard.” ---
**Author:** ![Shimrra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/shimrra/32/87_2.png) [@Shimrra](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Shimrra)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/71 "2016-05-27T19:34:51Z")
I just want the Maw and/or Mercy and/or IK teams to be less prevalent… and if it isn’t them, Bone Dragon and Gorgotha are close seconds. I’m not sure what to do about the level disparity on the leaderboards (while I agree that it’s freaking weird), but if these troops are being used _this_ often then clearly something is very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Studs](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/studs/32/3498_2.png) [@Studs](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Studs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/72 "2016-05-27T20:12:09Z")
Nerf em all!!! ---
**Author:** ![JasonAshcroft](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/jasonashcroft/32/1974_2.png) [@JasonAshcroft](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/JasonAshcroft)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/73 "2016-05-27T21:54:14Z")
> [@Studs](#): > > Nerf em all!!! We could just wait for the next worse thing to come. First it was broken TSO, sometimes later it was endless looping Webspinner/Slime/Shaman, then it was Centaur Scout/Skelly all over the place, and now it’s Mercy/Maw. They’ll come up with some super defense troop that will not only one-shot your team but at the same time steal your keys, souls and gems. And we’ll all talk about the good ol’ days when it was only about the Broken Worm. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![killerman3333](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/killerman3333/32/4068_2.png) [@killerman3333](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/killerman3333)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/74 "2016-05-27T22:06:03Z")
You forgot goblins. ---
**Author:** ![Lyya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/lyya/32/3650_2.png) [@Lyya](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Lyya)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/75 "2016-05-27T22:27:00Z")
Goblins never dominated the endgame, really. Yes, there were high-level players who played them, but they’ve always been the staple “budget” team. In 1.0.8, true damage was much more effective than they were. ---
**Author:** ![killerman3333](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/killerman3333/32/4068_2.png) [@killerman3333](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/killerman3333)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/76 "2016-05-27T23:14:51Z")
Not sure about end game but the fact that goblins have received a lot of nerf bat requests about them being on defence teams has to mean something in the 1.7 to 1.8 era. Devs would not look at them if not for us. ---
**Author:** ![Jainus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/jainus/32/34949_2.png) [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 7:05am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/77 "2016-05-29T07:05:21Z")
To anyone interested… I reproduced the opponents graph again for this morning’s pvp battling and maw-skipping… results (from my not-statistically-significant-but-soul-destroying sample of 50 offerings, that is 100 teams) are still unhappy, and (to me) worse in that the three trophy battles were utterly maw/mercy dominated… that sucks… To anyone struggling to read, that’s: - **62% of three trophy battles had Maw** - **64% of three trophy battles had Mercy** - **and 56% of three trophy battles had Maw and Mercy together** ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/2X/f/f3f0c3061705c1af6d75aff80514e641f7624149.jpg) PS: re-cutting the data, I have 60% of all battles offered had either Maw or Mercy on the enemy team… and 70% of all three trophy battles… ---
**Author:** ![esslee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/esslee/32/103072_2.png) [@esslee](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/esslee)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 7:35am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/78 "2016-05-29T07:35:27Z")
Old news - but I think the main reason for excess Maw/mercy teams is the combining of defence (AI) results with pvp results. I was perfectly happy with my (quite interesting) defence team until mid morning on Thursday when I too succumbed to the lure of the M/M defense without really assessing how well my previous defense team was doing. Shame on me. After the reset tomorrow I may return to my old defense as I am not too bothered about the ranking thing. ---
**Author:** ![Shiratori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shiratori](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Shiratori)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 7:46am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/79 "2016-05-29T07:46:02Z")
I wonder how much of this is also due to the reverse glitch where the defense team was set to the same as the invading team. People use the pair to invade and oops, there they are now defending as well. While I’m sure several people probably set it that way deliberately, I’d say a good number did it on accident as well. ---
**Author:** ![Studs](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/studs/32/3498_2.png) [@Studs](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Studs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504/80 "2016-05-29T13:33:57Z")
I feel very confident the dev team is aware of the situation and will do something about it. The bug fix alone should help a fair amount. [Previous page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504.md?page=3) [Next page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/updated-mab-in-pvp-graphs/7504.md?page=5)