# The biggest threat of the 2Manti/DB/BD team is **URL:** \ **Category:** Gameplay Chat (PC/Mobile)\ **Created:** [November 2, 2016, 11:40am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735 "2016-11-02T11:40:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Amadan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/amadan/32/7653_2.png) [@Amadan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Amadan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 11:40am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/1 "2016-11-02T11:40:17Z")
…that it’s making the game _boring_. That defense team isn’t difficult or dangerous; it’s just annoying. And when it’s 50% of all defense teams I run into, I find myself completely disinterested in the game this week. Sure, there are plenty of things to do other than PVP, but you’re still gonna get your Rank 1 for the week, right? And by the time that’s done, you’re so sick of seeing that team over and over that you just close the game because you don’t want to look at it anymore. There **really** needs to be some incentive to run a non-bandwagon defense team, and reward those people whose defense teams are keeping the game interesting. Call it a “meta combo breaker”. ---
**Author:** ![DonBoba](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/donboba/32/25457_2.png) [@DonBoba](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/DonBoba)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/2 "2016-11-02T11:47:48Z")
Pvp are free to chose any of 3 options. Just avoid that team, and you are good to go. ---
**Author:** ![Eika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/eika/32/103088_2.png) [@Eika](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Eika)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/3 "2016-11-02T11:47:56Z")
What would be cool would be that defends teams rewards is based on of how many used it, and gives better rewards if you f.example are using a defends team only 10% uses, than 25% etc. What I mean is that if someone invade you and lose to your defense team(that not many uses) you have a much greater multiplier for rewards. Rarity of a troop could be calculated every monday(event reset), of Sirrians list of most used troops during the previous event. The troops could be shared into 50 in each group, the 50 most used, then the 50 next most used, etc… Multiplier on rewards is then based on each troop individually added together. To make it greater, having a more rare defens team also gives more gold during PvP invade. it could be anything from base 50-100 gold. That way most want to use a more rare team in their defense team, to also gain a little more gold from PvP. ---
**Author:** ![ZooKeeper](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/zookeeper/32/30875_2.png) [@ZooKeeper](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ZooKeeper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/4 "2016-11-02T11:54:42Z")
Out of 600+ battles I did in PvP so far, I think I’ve fought that deck 500+ times. Welcome to the meta. Deal with it or avoid it. Simple. Though I agree that deck is annoying as hell. Not hard to beat, but annoying. But there are plenty of way to deal with that deck. Our biggest enemy in PvP race is boredom. ---
**Author:** ![Jainus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/jainus/32/34949_2.png) [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/5 "2016-11-02T11:58:25Z")
> [@DonBoba](#): > > Pvp are free to chose any of 3 options Well yes and no. This is saying people are _free_ to earn less gold and glory and fewer trophies. But we all have reasons for needing to get those as quickly as we can, efficiently, and ideally still having some fun… Anyone targeting a top 100 slot probably isn’t free to pick 1 or even 2 trophy matches. Those of us with high(er) Guild commitments can’t afford to spend time on too many of the easier matches either… I agree with @Amadan that the risk is the repetition. Was the case with many of the ‘meta’ teams appearing before - not that they can’t be beaten - but the match is far less fun, and then 75% of matches are the same… ---
**Author:** ![Eika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/eika/32/103088_2.png) [@Eika](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Eika)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/6 "2016-11-02T12:07:41Z")
@luhue added something more in my post, think the idea was brilliant! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DonBoba](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/donboba/32/25457_2.png) [@DonBoba](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/DonBoba)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/7 "2016-11-02T12:47:49Z")
> [@Jainus](#): > > Those of us with high(er) Guild commitments can’t afford to spend time on too many of the easier matches either… Seems like you got the impression I’m not one of these players. The OP said there are a lot of things to do besides PvP\* but you still need to reach rank 1. I merely suggested that at his journey to rank 1 he avoids those teams. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Amadan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/amadan/32/7653_2.png) [@Amadan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Amadan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/8 "2016-11-02T14:36:30Z")
> [@ZooKeeper](#): > > Out of 600+ battles I did in PvP so far, I think I’ve fought that deck 500+ times. Welcome to the meta. Deal with it or avoid it. Simple. Though I agree that deck is annoying as hell. Not hard to beat, but annoying. But there are plenty of way to deal with that deck. As far as “deal with it” goes…sorry, no. If there’s a problem that’s making the game dull and boring, then how about we try to fix it instead of just shrugging? The rest of your post is exactly what I mean - the deck certainly isn’t difficult to beat, but its near-omnipresence is making the grind _miserable_. > [@DonBoba](#): > > Pvp are free to chose any of 3 options. Well technically, sure, in the same sense that you’re also free to not PVP anymore. That still doesn’t help. ;p The reality is that anyone trying to make reasonable progress in PVP is always selecting the third team. > [@Eika](#): > > What would be cool would be that defends teams rewards is based on of how many used it, and gives better rewards if you f.example are using a defends team only 10% uses, than 25% etc. What I mean is that if someone invade you and lose to your defense team(that not many uses) you have a much greater multiplier for rewards. Yeah, exactly! If there’s actively an incentive to make less common defense teams - and _good_ ones, not throwaways - then people will try to do it. Especially if the reward ramps up quickly enough to make it worth risking some losses to experiment! ---
**Author:** ![Annaerith](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/annaerith/32/13840_2.png) [@Annaerith](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Annaerith)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/9 "2016-11-02T14:37:48Z")
> [@Eika](#): > > What would be cool would be that defends teams rewards is based on of how many used it, and gives better rewards if you f.example are using a defends team only 10% uses, than 25% etc. What I mean is that if someone invade you and lose to your defense team(that not many uses) you have a much greater multiplier for rewards. > > Rarity of a troop could be calculated every monday(event reset), of Sirrians list of most used troops during the previous event. The troops could be shared into 50 in each group, the 50 most used, then the 50 next most used, etc.. > > Multiplier on rewards is then based on each troop individually added together. > > To make it greater, having a more rare defens team also gives more gold during PvP invade. it could be anything from base 50-100 gold. That way most want to use a more rare team in their defense team, to also gain a little more gold from PvP. there was actually a lot of ideas put out there to make the pvp defense decks have more variety:[quote=“Annaerith, post:59, topic:11691”] i heard somewhere in the channel1 a concept of rewarding a uniqueness in the defense idk in what way rewarding but if the ‘uniqueness’ factor of your def had influence on the points you loose/gain by being attacked and/or some other rewards you could possibly gain by being attacked that could automatically mobilise players to actually try to find less common defense composition and solve the ‘boring’ problem? [/quote] (that was my favorite, so you are not alone) > [@Worst Thing That's Ever Happened to Game](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/worst-thing-thats-ever-happened-to-game/11691/72): > > hmm if drain and other slowing-down the fight properties were higher team-power scored for the defense score, then we could get the long fights more rewarding and that would at least even them out? > > but back to the ‘pvp not enough of teams diversity’ subject.. > > what ideas do we have so far? > -timed event themed unit/kingdom boosts > -timed event themed unit bans > -removal or total rebuild of the defense win/loss consequences system > -system that would be rewarding defense team ‘uniqueness’ > -making defense team less relevant by using invade team as the opponent for revenges > -forcing a change of team by limiting the time units are allowed to be used on defense > -using all or few teams toggled between each other instead of setting one team for defense > -limiting units to be allowed to be put only max of 4 of the kind in total in all the teams together > > variations/combinations of the above > > any other ideas guys? looking at that all.. i actually like a system more rewarding uniqueness of the team, coz then it possibly have a chance to not require constant programming like the events do, and still offers motivation for players to make a different team, it may not even have to touch the balaning at all if the rewards only touch the defense win/loss rewards which are pvp points souls keys gems etc, so a highly unique team could loose no pvp points when loosing and gain a lot of points when winning for example where the most common def team could loose a lot pvp points when loosing and won nearly no point when winning.. players would have to find balance between a team strong enough to win and unique enough to make that win relevant > [@Worst Thing That's Ever Happened to Game](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/worst-thing-thats-ever-happened-to-game/11691/73): > > Along those lines @Annaerith, here’s 2 ideas we’ve been toying with: > > 1. Weekly events > We prefer the carrot rather than the stick here… we’ve been trying out a design for weekly events that theme automatically around a kingdom. So, suppose Khetar is the kingdom for the week, we have some combination of: > > Khetar Kingdom bonus gets a buff, or > Undead bonus gets a buff, or > Undead units get individual buffs, or > The Banner unlocked with Khetar gives a buff, or > The tribute bonus for the week is buffed if Khetar is your home kingdom, or > Some combination of the above > > This should shift the meta for some folks every week. Of course some adventurers just like to watch the world burn, and will leave their defenders untouched, but that’s okay… we’re chasing some variety with this not totalvariety. > > 1. Troop/Reward Modifiers > The game automatically generates a DEFENSE reward-modifier for each troop, based on their usage… maybe gets updated daily or weekly. > These would be small… +10% to +50% maybe, maybe +100% for a troop that is WAY under-utilized. > By constructing teams of under-used troops for DEFENSE, you then get a neat little multiplier to your rewards… get a clever team together and win a few games and you get great prizes. > Imagine even getting that on a LEADERBOARD somehow… ---
**Author:** ![DonBoba](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/donboba/32/25457_2.png) [@DonBoba](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/DonBoba)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/10 "2016-11-02T14:53:30Z")
Every single game out there has something main that’s better used then other stuff. Here on gow those are double mant/ db/ bd, or double courage/ mant / bd or any variation, and also troops like mab, ek, death and famine are common troops on defends. Why? because they are simplyou stronger then other troops. If all of them would get nerfed then second best troops now will become best troops of that meta and the “problem” persists. If you have 2 troops with different spells one will have to be on top of the other. There will always be tier 1 troops. If you nerf tier 1 troops then troops that were tier 2 will move up a tier and replace previous tier 1 troops. As the game progressed we saw shifting in meta, but we always had some troops that are considered better then the others. That’s the way it is and it cant be changed. On other hand you have a lot more variety for invading now which is wonderful! ---
**Author:** ![ZooKeeper](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/zookeeper/32/30875_2.png) [@ZooKeeper](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ZooKeeper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/11 "2016-11-02T15:04:06Z")
Exactly. Meta will always shifting. I’ll say it again, deal with it or avoid it. Because when a meta is gone, new meta will come and people who can’t deal with the meta will complain again. ---
**Author:** ![Mahamoti](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/mahamoti/32/19354_2.png) [@Mahamoti](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Mahamoti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/12 "2016-11-02T15:12:43Z")
You know, there are only a handful of defenses that I’d call “meta”. Everyone is bitching about Manticore, but Every. Single. One. of those “meta” defenses has either Bone Dragon or Famine in it. Are we looking at the right “problem”? Note that I think “problem” is an interesting word here, because I never reroll or pick other than the 3-trophy match, seeing these meta decks the large majority of the time, and still win well north of 95% of my invades. ---
**Author:** ![ZooKeeper](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/zookeeper/32/30875_2.png) [@ZooKeeper](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ZooKeeper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/13 "2016-11-02T15:16:31Z")
> [@Amadan](#): > > If there’s a problem that’s making the game dull and boring, then how about we try to fix it instead of just shrugging? I don’t see it as a game problem that a devs need to fix. I see it as you get bored and don’t want to deal with the meta. Instead of asking people not to put that deck in their defense, I’d try different builds to deal with them. To avoid boredom. If your aim in PvP is to get to tier 1, you only need to do around 30-40 battles. And if you already feel bored doing 30-40 battle then you don’t really love this game. ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/14 "2016-11-02T15:22:15Z")
Bone Dragon is the common denominator. I see M/M/DB/BD a lot but I see BD in some build or another literally EVERY match. ---
**Author:** ![Mahamoti](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/mahamoti/32/19354_2.png) [@Mahamoti](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Mahamoti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/15 "2016-11-02T15:28:05Z")
I believe it’s a result of the AI. While other decks might be better when piloted, even the AI is good enough to understand “pick purple/brown (since you tell it to with the banner) until you fire Bone Dragon and kill two troops.” The only decisions that need to be made are right banner and BD in 3rd/4th position to protect from Khorvash. ---
**Author:** ![Fifthelement](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/fifthelement/32/8383_2.png) [@Fifthelement](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Fifthelement)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/16 "2016-11-02T15:29:00Z")
> [@Mahamoti](#): > > You know, there are only a handful of defenses that I’d call “meta”. Everyone is bitching about Manticore, but Every. Single. One. of those “meta” defenses has either Bone Dragon or Famine in it. Are we looking at the right “problem”? Yes we are looking at the right PROBLEM. Both Bone Dragon and Famine can be dealt with, unlike Manticore - and do you know why? one simple answer - IMPERVIOUS. It’s like someone said (i cba to check if it was in this topic or another), this little shit casts once and has 40+ attack and a huge potential of getting (a lot) more. Take Impervious away from manticores and I guarantee you that half of the people “bitching” about manticore won’t give a crap anymore. Or take Empowered away from it, one of the two. > [@Mahamoti](#): > > I never reroll or pick other than the 3-trophy match, seeing these meta decks the large majority of the time, and still win well north of 95% of my invades. good for you, so do I, and that doesn’t change the fact that double manti teams are simply annoying and soul-crushing and make me want to stop playing GoW altogether until this BS is gone. Only because it’s beatable, doesn’t mean it’s not stupidly disgusting to the point of making people quit. tl:dr manticore might have been nerfed in the past, not enough apparently. ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/17 "2016-11-02T15:30:26Z")
Leave empower and impervious, take away stun. Honestly, I wouldn’t be heartbroken if they just removed stun from the game altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Mahamoti](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/mahamoti/32/19354_2.png) [@Mahamoti](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Mahamoti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/18 "2016-11-02T15:31:48Z")
Manticore isn’t the problem. It’s just one of the very few troops the AI can manage to play. The AI is the problem. If it could pilot one of the many, many more effective teams out there, you’d see more variety. Are people really quitting over winning less than 100% of their games? ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/19 "2016-11-02T15:33:05Z")
No, they’re upset with the lack of variety in the high-end meta. And it’s a legit gripe, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![ZooKeeper](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/zookeeper/32/30875_2.png) [@ZooKeeper](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ZooKeeper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735/20 "2016-11-02T15:34:38Z")
> [@htismaqe](#): > > Bone Dragon is the common denominator. > > I see M/M/DB/BD a lot but I see BD in some build or another literally EVERY match. Yes, it’s Bone Dragon. Another common BD deck is double courage bone dragon + 1 other troop. Deep borer seems a good pair to BD. Idk but DB tends to always hit to make 4/5 brown matches to fill BD. I had a game where enemy DB had full mana and I can’t deny it. So I deny as many brown as possible and there were only 4 brown on board. DB casted and still made 5 match plus a possible 4 match. [Next page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/the-biggest-threat-of-the-2manti-db-bd-team-is/14735.md?page=2)