# \[reported\] Instakill Vs Dark Oracle's Reflect = Both Dead
**URL:** https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321
**Category:** Bug Reports
**Created:** [March 8, 2026, 2:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321 "2026-03-08T14:12:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@AMT](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/AMT)
#### Post date: [March 8, 2026, 2:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/1 "2026-03-08T14:12:52Z")
**Platform:** Android
**Screenshot or image: [https://youtu.be/SIt3OosAgHY?si=36IYxkLrYpFPix\_Q](https://youtu.be/SIt3OosAgHY?si=36IYxkLrYpFPix_Q)**
**What you were expecting to happen, and what actually happened:**
_When casting Zuul, only the target enemy should die..
..instead, Dark Oracle first trait applies Reflect, causing Zuul to die too._
**How often does this happen? When did it begin happening?**
_Always against Dark Oracle_
**Steps to make it happen again**
_Cast Instakill spell Vs Dark Oracle_
**What should happen if we want things to make sense:**
Instakill Spells and Effects (e.g. Archer trait) should kill a troop without inflicting some hidden amount of damage that can be reflected
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### Author:  [@DracoL1ch](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/DracoL1ch)
#### Post date: [March 8, 2026, 4:00pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/2 "2026-03-08T16:00:34Z")
lmao cleanse on target happens prior to their traits..
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### Author:  [@Qakie](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Qakie)
#### Post date: [March 8, 2026, 4:25pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/3 "2026-03-08T16:25:42Z")
Experienced the very same thing with maelstrom dagoânath.
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### Author:  [@Stratelier](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Stratelier)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2026, 2:48am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/4 "2026-03-09T02:48:29Z")
Isnât lethal damage supposed to dispel the target first now?
âŚwait. Dark Oracle, Iâve never bothered to actually use the Troop.
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### Author:  [@Jeto](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jeto)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 12:27am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/5 "2026-03-10T00:27:50Z")
Am I mistaken in understanding that reflect will reflect back half damage?
But I also thought the total fatal damage was based on the troops health + armor (cos thatâs how itâs displayed in-game) and itâs not just a flat huge number. Which means even when halved from reflect, is still fatal..
Iâll see what I can get from the team on it.
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### Author:  [@DracoL1ch](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/DracoL1ch)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 12:41am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/6 "2026-03-10T00:41:19Z")
it reflects 99999 damage, no matter how you halve it. **Workaround** was to cleanse the target, and here we got a troop which applies buff on self when taking damage - which happens just after cleanse effect
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### Author:  [@AMT](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/AMT)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 12:48am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/7 "2026-03-10T00:48:24Z")
AFAIK, âkillâ has been hardcoded as some very large damage figure, instead of the more reasonable âkill switchâ that bypasses inflicting actual damage.
This approach has caused issues throughout, like when Archerâs 3rd trait triggers on a troop with reflect, killing the Archer too (they called it working as intended, but it has the scent of âoopsie but not worth the effort fixingâ), or when Ubastet kills a hero with the Saviour talent, and the resulting Barrier prevents the second troop from being killed (not sure if this has been fixed, havenât encountered the scenario in a while).
Basically, the choice of implementing âKillâ as âhereâs a boatload of damageâ causes issues every now and then, like itâs happening with Dark Oracle (Zuul Dispels \> Sends Boatload of Damage \> Damage triggers Dark Oracle 1st Trait reflect \> Everything dies)
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### Author:  [@Stratelier](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Stratelier)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 3:58am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/8 "2026-03-10T03:58:50Z")
> [@DracoL1ch](#):
>
> âŚand here we got a troop which applies buff on self when taking damage - which happens just after cleanse effect
This is inconsistent with "the âAquaticâ trait, which also triggers upon taking damage but is processed AFTER the actual damage.
Currently, the Dark Oracleâs trait is tantamount to having Reflect on 100% EVERY time it takes any damage. Which could be reasonable thematically, but itâs kind of way too powerful and especially for a first traitâŚ
> [@Jeto](#):
>
> But I also thought the total fatal damage was based on the troops health + armor (cos thatâs how itâs displayed in-game) and itâs not just a flat huge number. Which means even when halved from reflect, is still fatal..
Reflect has always been based on damage _as calculated_, not the actual HP lost.
But lethal damage (at least for spells) also got tweaked at some time ago to Dispel the target before killing, perhaps specifically to deal with the target having Reflect status.
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### Author:  [@DracoL1ch](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/DracoL1ch)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 6:16am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/9 "2026-03-10T06:16:19Z")
if you look closely, aquatic being applied instantly, it just doesnât avoid the aoe damage which triggered it - because this filter only happens on spell cast event.
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### Author:  [@Zuul-Emo](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Zuul-Emo)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 1:57pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/10 "2026-03-10T13:57:12Z")
Seems like the trait is bugged and applying reflect BEFORE damage, instead of AFTER damage.
Fix that and this wouldnât be an issue any more. Because it would take damage and die, with no reflect to kill the attacker. And if it takes damage and gets reflect, then takes instant death damage, it would be dispelled then, and not have reflect when taking the damage.
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### Author:  [@itsGettingOldQuick](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/itsGettingOldQuick)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 2:08pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/11 "2026-03-10T14:08:20Z")
I havnt looked. But does this troop. Have automatic reflect. No matter what.
If it does, then reflect has to work.
Maybe its reflecting to much, but if its auto. It cant just be dismissed.
Iv never had this happen to me. So im in the dark.
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### Author:  [@itsGettingOldQuick](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/itsGettingOldQuick)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 2:14pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/12 "2026-03-10T14:14:44Z")
Ok ignore me. It says. Gain reflect when take damage. So its AFTER.
So using the dictionary, reflect shouldnt work, as hes dead after damage.
Time to fix. Asap.
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### Author:  [@Darkborne](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Darkborne)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 5:02pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/13 "2026-03-10T17:02:10Z")
Dark Oracleâs reflect is like the iron maiden curse from Diablo 2âdamage dealt is damage received. I charged in with my Barbarian and took a swing at some daemons and got destroyed with just one frenzy swing, while my corpse exploded on the floor. Good times.đ¤Ł
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### Author:  [@Stratelier](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Stratelier)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 10:41pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/14 "2026-03-10T22:41:02Z")
> [@DracoL1ch](#):
>
> if you look closely, aquatic being applied instantly, it just doesnât avoid the aoe damage which triggered it - because this filter only happens on spell cast event.
Youâre thinking of âTidalâ? Aquatic is the âsubmerge when I take damageâ, and applies to damage from any/all sources.
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### Author:  [@Nagflar\_dv](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Nagflar_dv)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2026, 11:42pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/15 "2026-03-10T23:42:20Z")
> [@Stratelier](#):
>
> But lethal damage (at least for spells) also got tweaked at some time ago to Dispel the target before killing, perhaps specifically to deal with the target having Reflect status.
Only Zuul do dispell the target before killing - just try to use it on a submerged maelstrom - it would dispell a submerge with no damage and harm. Noone else can do this.
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### Author:  [@Stratelier](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Stratelier)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2026, 3:14am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/16 "2026-03-12T03:14:42Z")
> [@Nagflar\_dv](#):
>
> just try to use it on a submerged maelstrom - it would dispell a submerge with no damage and harm
Nay, Maelstrom Dagoânath is âInvulnerableâ i.e. immune to Lethal Damage from the outset.
So, no lethal = no dispel.
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### Author:  [@Nagflar\_dv](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Nagflar_dv)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2026, 3:30am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/17 "2026-03-12T03:30:26Z")
> [@Stratelier](#):
>
> So, no lethal = no dispel.
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### Author:  [@Risa](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Risa)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2026, 8:36am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/18 "2026-03-14T08:36:50Z")
Iâd call this a âfeature, not a bugâ. This feature doesnât overturn the win/lose situation in gameplay, and is perfectly explainable in mechanics. So no reason to spend efforts to âfix itâ.
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### Author:  [@Zuul-Emo](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Zuul-Emo)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2026, 9:02pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/19 "2026-03-14T21:02:48Z")
> [@Risa](#):
>
> Iâd call this a âfeature, not a bugâ.
What do you mean? The trait is supposed to apply reflect AFTER taking damage, and instead applies it BEFORE taking damage. That is a bug. Not a feature.
> [@Risa](#):
>
> This feature doesnât overturn the win/lose situation in gameplay
You can lose a troop, possibly your last troop, and thus lose the battle, when you arenât supposed to. If you target a troop that doesnât have reflect, and try to kill it, you are not supposed to lose your troop. With this bug, you do.
As for whether or not reflect should kill your troop as well, the jury is out on that and itâs been argued for years. But if the troop does NOT have reflect, it shouldnât suddenly get it and kill your troop unfairly. That is clearly bugged.
> [@Risa](#):
>
> So no reason to spend efforts to âfix itâ.
I disagree. It might just be one troop, but the trait is bugged and they could give it to other troops later, so it should be fixed.
And letâs be honest. Itâs one bit of code that is applying a status effect before something instead of after something. It should be an easy, quick fix. Not hours or days of work rewriting an entire game mode. This is something small that can be thrown in as part of the âminor fixesâ section tacked on to the end of most updates. Itâs not a priority, but when they get a chance, they should fix the bug.
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### Author:  [@AMT](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/AMT)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2026, 3:38am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/reported-instakill-vs-dark-oracles-reflect-both-dead/89321/20 "2026-03-19T03:38:39Z")
Iâm aware that all eyes are on 9.1 right now, but hoping that the following suggestion gets added to the report: if we spend a little extra time fixing the âkillâ code once and for all to make it so it stops counting as damage, we may save time in the long-term by not having to chase these unwanted scenarios when they periodically arise.
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