# R.I.P. Maw meta. The new meta is Manticore/Khorvash?
**URL:** https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137
**Category:** Gameplay Chat (PC/Mobile)
**Created:** [August 17, 2016, 6:30am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137 "2016-08-17T06:30:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/41 "2016-08-17T17:27:12Z")
Here we go again. EK is OP _conditionally_ IF there’s a Valk on the team. So is it EK that is too strong, or is it Valkyrie?
Because the contention was that Mercy needed nerfed because of Maw. One or the other is true, not both.
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### Author:  [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/42 "2016-08-17T17:35:22Z")
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> How is “the meta stinks, nerf X and Y” more productive than any other argument.
When people at least have the decency to post what is happening exactly and came here to discuss, share experiences and maybe come to a sense of what is the reasonable approach to certain troops effects.
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> Try to lose the self-righteousness and look at the irony of what you posted.
Honestly the human interaction can’t be nothing but ironic sometimes, wanna see an example?
You mention “The meta Stinks, nerf X and Y.” labeling our discussion as such non-constructive input, but you are being self-righteousness defending someone that is just saying “Changing the game is ruining my experience.” that is also a non-constructive input. Ironic huh?
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> You’re roasting someone for saying they’re losing interest in the game in response to SEVERAL PEOPLE asking for nerfing troops because THEY’RE LOSING INTEREST IN THE GAME.
I mentioned that i guess it’s not a Meta yet, just the starting point of one.
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### Author:  [@PinkMooNinja](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/PinkMooNinja)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/43 "2016-08-17T17:39:55Z")
I agree, I made a post about how OP those two are a week or so ago. They are simply too complete. Emp is fine, he is a very well thought out troop, and works nicely on D and O. Manticore, is awesome, but his weakness (low HP/Armor) isn’t easy to exploit with Impervious. Also, Manticore’s primary role is to benefit off of empowered troops, and those troops that take a massive amount of mana to get going. Manticore’s ability is simply way undercosted.
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### Author:  [@killerman3333](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/killerman3333)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/44 "2016-08-17T17:41:46Z")
I might as well chime in again, yes there is a rise in number of people playing these troops but not at the extent that would make them too powerful. What keeps making troops seem op is the fact that they are being properly supported. It took till after the true shot meta (maw was around before that meta and so was mercy) before people made a team that made a troop actually shine. Is mab op? No because she does not work on her own. Was maw op? No because he needed a skull spammer and a mana generator and a back up card for when it loses its spell. What does a khorvash/manticore team need to work? So far i know of valkyrie but that is just sad. Manticore is Y/G and at 9 mana so if you are using a support it should be skull spam. On his own though he is terrible at low levels. No traits is sad however he is weak to another empowered car that deals damage the bigger manticore gets and is equally as cheap. Stun is stupid at lower levels where there are no traits so Emperor khorvash is also pass worthy.
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### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/45 "2016-08-17T17:45:04Z")
> [@Ivar](#):
>
> When people at least have the decency to post what is happening exactly and came here to discuss, share experiences and maybe come to a sense of what is the reasonable approach to certain troops effects.
Both sides have had the decency to post what is happening exactly and came here to discuss. Some people think changing troops is reasonable, others don’t. No approach is any more valid or useful than another. It’s all just opinion until the devs decide what to do anyway.
> [@Ivar](#):
>
> You mention “The meta Stinks, nerf X and Y.” labeling our discussion as such non-constructive input, but you are being self-righteousness defending someone that is just saying “Changing the game is ruining my experience.” that is also a non-constructive input. Ironic huh?
Actually I never said that at all. I never said ANY of the comments in this thread were non-constructive. I simply asked how the opinion that balance needs to be accomplished through nerfs is constantly treated as the MOST constructive option around here…
Let’s not pretend that the vast majority of these OP complaints don’t come from the same 5 or 6 people over and over and over again, people who just happen to be some of the most prosperous players in the game. They also comprise about 1% of the player base so why are we continuously subjected to the idea that their wishes are more important and their input is more valid than anyone else’s?
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### Author:  [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/46 "2016-08-17T18:07:41Z")
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> Here we go again. EK is OP conditionally IF there’s a Valk on the team. So is it EK that is too strong, or is it Valkyrie?
That is not what I said. No ‘conditionally’ intended. EK is too strong. I have no problem with most of the gem converters (other than the lack of the brown one), they’re a great part of the game, its strategies and tactics. EK does too much stuff and far too much damage (as true damage) for that cost.
I also think the Maw/Mercy point is a distraction - and was also wrong at the time and the equivalent is a red herring now. I think Mercy is a bit overpowered, and Maw was very much so - but my issue with Mercy is that I think empowered board-changers are very unwise - Maw just showcased the issue, but it didn’t cause the issue.
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### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/47 "2016-08-17T18:12:15Z")
The chances of EK killing two troops before being killed himself aren’t 100%, even WITH Valkyrie. Without Valkyrie, he’s not OP at all.
The biggest (and only IMHO) problem with Maw was the raw mercilessness of the RNG when it came to his 3rd trait. I don’t see anything about Khorvash that even remotely resembles that.
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### Author:  [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/48 "2016-08-17T18:12:19Z")
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> No approach is any more valid or useful than another.
Hmmm, yes some are, because there is something to discuss in the sense that some people can conclude something out of it like that a nerf is necessary, or not.
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> I simply asked how the opinion that balance needs to be accomplished through nerfs is constantly treated as the MOST constructive option around here…
Strange, now you are at least using waaay more words to describe your previous question:
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> How is “the meta stinks, nerf X and Y” more productive than any other argument.
But well, i have the opinion that a lot of troops need to be changed for the better, and there is clearly room for improvement, but since the time of the developers is restricted (they need to produce new content each week) it is also a challenge for them to balance things, in both ways, at the same rate.
I’m fine with fact that maybe the troops don’t need a nerf because maybe there is some upgrades yet to be released, but since we don’t have this information here we are discussing things.
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> Let’s not pretend that the vast majority of these OP complaints don’t come from the same 5 or 6 people over and over and over again, people who just happen to be some of the most prosperous players in the game.
Yeah, and do you know what else they are? Experienced. They played this game way before us and have much more “timely insight”, it’s not like we couldn’t reach the same level of understanding, or that our input is invalid.
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> They also comprise about 1% of the player base so why are we continuously subjected to the idea that their wishes are more important and their input is more valid than anyone else’s?
But hey, do you know what they are doing? They are posting their opnions, explaining why something is doing something, or why something should be more like somehing else. And they are putting this all for us to agree, or don’t, they are open to discuss.
They aren’t simply saying: “Things being changed are ruining this game for me…”.
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### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/49 "2016-08-17T18:25:16Z")
> [@Ivar](#):
>
> Hmmm, yes some are, because there is something to discuss in the sense that some people can conclude something out of it like that a nerf is necessary, or not.[/quote]
>
> What? Ultimately nothing here is more than an opinion. Unless a developer decides to chime in here (as they have in the past) it’s all wishful thinking. That fact that you view one side as “discussing” and the other as “non-productive” says quite a lot actually.
>
> > [@Ivar](#):
> >
> > Strange, now you are at least using waaay more words to describe your previous question:
>
> Strange how it’s not waaaayy more words. My first question was:
>
> How is “the meta stinks, nerf X and Y” more productive than any other argument?
>
> My 2nd question was:
>
> Why is the opinion that balance needs to be accomplished through nerfs constantly treated as the MOST constructive option?
>
> > [@Ivar](#):
> >
> > Yeah, and do you know what else they are? Experienced. They played this game way before us and have much more “timely insight”, it’s not like we couldn’t reach the same level of understanding, or that our input is invalid.
>
> Experienced in what? Many of them were nearing 1000 or already there when 2.0 was released. The game now doesn’t even remotely look like the 1.0.8 game I started playing, let alone the even older versions that existed while they were traversing 99% of their leveling progress in the game. The only VALID experience that they have over everyone else is that they are experiencing the end game meta. Conversely, everyone who is between level 250 and 750 now is experiencing a game those people NEVER experienced.
>
> [quote=“Ivar, post:48, topic:11137, full:true”]But hey, do you know what they are doing? They are posting their opnions, explaining why something is doing something, or why something should be more like somehing else. And they are putting this all for us to agree, or don’t, they are open to discuss.
> They aren’t simply saying: “Things being changed are ruining this game for me…”.
Again you’re refusing to acknowledge an alternative viewpoint. Implied in @Gouki original criticism is a quite valid suggestion - namely that the game is fine as it is and doesn’t require any nerfs.
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### Author:  [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/50 "2016-08-17T18:32:04Z")
@htismaqe @Ivar perhaps it’s time to give it a rest on this thread; just disagree and leave it at that, and stop spinning it that one is being constructive and one isn’t…
Let’s hear some other voices… though on views on the troops in question or strategies for dealing with them, or suggestions for changing them, or specific reasons not to change them… not just the old ‘nerf don’t nerf’ debate please…
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### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/51 "2016-08-17T18:35:03Z")
You suggest we agree to disagree and move on but then you ask for suggestions for changing the discussed troops.
If one doesn’t believe they need changing in the first place, why would we suggest changes? “They don’t need changed” is a perfectly valid opinion.
This looks like a heavy-handed attempt to squash one side of the argument. And with that, I’m done. Nerf away.
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### Author:  [@Lyya](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Lyya)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/52 "2016-08-17T18:35:59Z")
My opinion is that of the two, Manticore is much more annoying to handle. Impervious + low mana cost + full mana drain is obnoxious. Neither one is particularly hard to beat, but you need to be careful about what you bring to the party. EK is easier to deny, even if his spell is more devastating; you.can protect your generators by putting them in the “safe” slots, which Manticore can reach right past.
I feel that a small boost in mana cost would be warranted for both troops, especially Manicore. Otherwise, I like that they both require me to think a bit and aren’t steamroll fodder.
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### Author:  [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/53 "2016-08-17T18:36:54Z")
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> Again you’re refusing to acknowledge an alternative viewpoint. Implied in @Gouki original criticism is a quite valid suggestion - namely that the game is fine as it is and doesn’t require any nerfs.
And both you are as well refusing to acknowledge the alternative viewpoint that maybe something needs to be changed.
> [@Jainus](#):
>
> @htismaqe @Ivar perhaps it’s time to give it a rest on this thread; just disagree and leave it at that, and stop spinning it that one is being constructive and one isn’t…
But i still haven’t used the super-mega-duper-brilliant-insightfull-daring-revolutionary-triumphal post: “This is ruining the game for me…” 😛
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### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/54 "2016-08-17T18:38:15Z")
> [@Ivar](#):
>
> And both you are as well refusing to acknowledge the alternative viewpoint that maybe something needs to be changed.
Other than the multiple times I said ALL viewpoints are valid, sure I didn’t acknowledge it. 😕
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### Author:  [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/55 "2016-08-17T18:42:41Z")
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> Other than the multiple times I said ALL viewpoints are valid, sure I didn’t acknowledge it. 😕
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> …ALL viewpoints are valid…
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> Let’s not pretend that the vast majority of these OP complaints don’t come from the same 5 or 6 people over and over and over again, people who just happen to be some of the most prosperous players in the game. They also comprise about 1% of the player base so why are we continuously subjected to the idea that their wishes are more important and their input is more valid than anyone else’s?
You suuuuure did pal… 😉
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### Author:  [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/56 "2016-08-17T18:42:56Z")
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> You suggest we agree to disagree and move on but then you ask for suggestions for changing the discussed troops.
You misunderstand me, perhaps being deliberately perverse, or perhaps my post was unclear, sorry.
I edited it to be clear - I’d welcome any views on _either_ side of the debate on these troops, change or don’t change, strategies for dealing with them or tips for using them - just something other than you two sniping at each other.
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> This looks like a heavy-handed attempt to squash one side of the argument.
It wasn’t.
> [@htismaqe](#):
>
> And both you are as well refusing to acknowledge the alternative viewpoint that maybe something needs to be changed.
>
> Other than the multiple times I said ALL viewpoints are valid, sure I didn’t acknowledge it. 😕
Enough already…[quote=“Ivar, post:55, topic:11137”]
You suuuuure did pal… 😉
[/quote]
Bah…
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### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/57 "2016-08-17T18:44:18Z")
If you’re going to call me out, please use the quote function properly. You included Ivar’s sentence in a quote from me.
That being said, I appreciate the edit to your post. It’s much more clear now.
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### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/58 "2016-08-17T18:51:42Z")
Back on topic, I don’t find Manticore to be overpowered at all. In fact, I think he introduces a bit of necessary decision making that’s both enjoyable and refreshing.
If you’re using him against Mab / Mercy / Valk / Bat, you basically have to roll the dice because somebody is getting filled. If you’re using him against the inevitable Maw / Bone Dragon combo, you have to decide which one to target and then hope you can refill him quickly (which isn’t always possible despite the low mana cost). If you’re using him against another Manticore, you have to decide whether to preemptively hit it so that he can’t drain away your entire first turn of moves.
I really don’t find any of the new troops overpowered, just different. Then again, I didn’t have a problem with Maw either. I quite enjoyed playing against Maw teams.
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### Author:  [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/59 "2016-08-17T18:56:13Z")
I’m thinking if at some point we will have forum moderators that are not “Developers only”. I can’t promise to be at my best behavior everytime and i’m sure that the community could benefit of a group of members that can cover the diferent time-zones in order to keep things less derailed from time to time.
Is it possible on this type of forum @Sirrian, @Nimhain ?
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### Author:  [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/r-i-p-maw-meta-the-new-meta-is-manticore-khorvash/11137/60 "2016-08-17T19:00:04Z")
It probably won’t work. In a fan forum environment, it’s not bad.
But considering this community is essentially made up of a small group of “suppliers” and a large majority of “customers”, it would be difficult to maintain lack of bias if select members of that large majority suddenly had moderator ability.
Not saying it won’t work, just saying that past experience suggests that user-moderated forums for a “product” tend to become very one-sided, especially when it creates a perception that the moderators ARE the developers or somehow speak for them in an official capacity.
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