# Let's prove the AI is fair and reasonable **URL:** \ **Category:** Feature Requests and Game feedback\ **Created:** [August 30, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967 "2018-08-30T18:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gouki](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/gouki/32/22405_2.png) [@Gouki](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Gouki)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/62 "2018-09-02T17:39:01Z")
> [@Slypenslyde](#): > > We need like, Smash Bros. rules: no gem masteries, no free turns, no exploders, no generators, no troops with abilities that target at random. Pretty sure _GoW-Smash_ Bayonetta would have gem masteries, free turns, exploders and all that.(Yes that is a _Smash is balanced terribly, go play a real fighting game_ pun). Anyways i get what you are saying, but the examples miss the mark, noone wants dark Soul GoW, and noone ever stated that, with 90%+++ average winrates among end game players with access to all troops i am also pretty sure we are as far away from Dark Souls GoW as we can be. I fully understand where you are coming from, as i said before i feel the same about losing to bad luck but your suggestion to basically lobotomize the AI to prevent that would definitely kill the game for me and i’d assume many others too. ---
**Author:** ![Ashasekayi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/ashasekayi/32/61090_2.png) [@Ashasekayi](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Ashasekayi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/63 "2018-09-02T17:44:50Z")
> [@Gouki](#): > > your suggestion to basically lobotomize the AI to prevent that would definitely kill the game for me and i’d assume many others too. Amen to this. I have a 95% win rate despite the fact that I go up against the silly OP divine meta with fun, yet underpowered teams at times just for the giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Changer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/changer/32/39871_2.png) [@Changer](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Changer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/64 "2018-09-02T17:45:54Z")
Why does the AI need to get a cheap win in order for the game to feel challenging though? And does it REALLY feel challenging when you lose to luck? While yes, the game would be boring if everyone had a 100% win rate, aren’t we BASICALLY already there anyway? Once you have all the cards, you win 100% of all winnable matches, and then the only time you lose is when seemingly the computer goes “Hold up, the AI gets this one. Nothing you do is stopping this.” That isn’t challenging. It’s not engaging. It’s not improving the experience for anyone, really. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/65 "2018-09-02T18:05:45Z")
> [@Slypenslyde](#): > > Or you can remove that non-argument from your repertoire. It doesn’t do anything to invalidate my points, or that in general _everyone_ gets agitated when the CPU is lucky. Point taken, the issue is that you are not arguing about the root of the problem, **how the mechanics favors streaky lucky from both sides** , it just happens that the players don’t like when the A.I is lucky, but they are entirely fine if they are luck over the course of thousands of battles under the same circustances. If we cripple the A.I even more can you honestly say the game will be better? We don’t need to make it like Darksouls and such, but if there is no reasonable challenge, even a little fake challenge, what is the point of playing GoW and not Candy Crush? > [@Slypenslyde](#): > > It turns out players get more excited about “barely surviving” than “reloading the save until I win”, and rigging the game in their favor means the developers can make more brutal encounters _and_ have happier players. Some of them wouldn’t be so happy to know that their victories are so empty, but ignorance is a bliss. > [@Slypenslyde](#): > > I want GoW to be more Mario Kart than Forza. If I wanted “fair” to mean “sometimes other people get more than you” I’d get a second job instead of spending 10+ hours on a video game weekly. If you want a less troubling experience with the game, Casual PVP sounds just about right for you, each battle have some rewards you can get in Ranked PVP, you can reroll your enemies for 50 gold only and you always gets much more than that in each battle. Even if you lose there is no penalty so i guess it fits the Mario Kart/Forza analogy **without removing the Forza experince that others might enjoy.** Now about the second part of “fair earnings” i’m not sure what you meant, so please explain it better. Also, i was honestly suggesting to avoid te game for a while, now it seems to be fine but the serves issues were infuriating at the time i posted. And i don’t think you, or anyone, would be in a decent mood to discuss the matter at hand if you would keep insisting to play GoW at that given time. That’s all. > [@Changer](#): > > The problem is not with the AI getting turns. The problem is with the AI getting ALL the turns. It’s gotten to the point where there are just so many team combinations that can maximize and exploit the game’s luck-heavy features to create unwinnable scenarios, that it’s ridiculous. Precisely, now you are honestly taking a solid approach to what i agree as a problem. There are mechanics throwing away the very few strategy this game ever had in favor of some mindless explosions and cascades, but as i said some players doesn’t cares if the cascades and extra turns are ridiculous, as long as they favor the player and not the A.I. I used to play Goblins when i was below level 300 and at the time, believe or not, there was a decent balance. They could get extra turns and work pretty much as control team because their spell damage was never higher than the sum of HP/Armor of the enemies, so i had to play and keep choosing the best matches trying to figure the next gems that would drop, with the sole advantege of having an extra turn to keep my advantage. When facing Golins it would take some time to win, but that was mostly fine, they couldn’t get too ridiculous and with troops of highest rarities you could certainlly have better results against them. All this changed, and with Wizzbang/Nobends explosions goblins were insanely ridiculous, still infuriating in some challenges… Explosions are “The secret Meta” causing issues, not our mentally challenged A.I. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/66 "2018-09-02T18:27:04Z")
> [@Changer](#): > > While yes, the game would be boring if everyone had a 100% win rate, aren’t we BASICALLY already there anyway? Once you have all the cards, you win 100% of all winnable matches, This what means being at the Endgame, the game challenge is generally reaching such state. Correct me if i’m wrong, but i think it was @Kurokazna who once said, and i quote from memory: `"This is the point of the game where you can challenge yourself by using weaker troops if you want to."` Personally i enjoy the creative exercise of making teams with (base) low rarity troops, and that’s an enjoyable experience. ---
**Author:** ![Slypenslyde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/slypenslyde/32/30373_2.png) [@Slypenslyde](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Slypenslyde)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/67 "2018-09-02T21:51:29Z")
> [@Razzagor](#): > > If you want a less troubling experience with the game, Casual PVP sounds just about right for you Can you open your mouth without turning it into a “get better, n00b” insult? ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/68 "2018-09-02T22:16:06Z")
I’m not insulting you. If your disposition to read my comments is to always assume it’s an attack then i can’t help you at all. What exactly you expect from this game? An experience without any lucky event that favors the A.I? These can happen, specially if the design direction the devs took almost an year ago favors such streaky events. I don’t like facing Divines or Goblins as much as everyone else, but i deal with it or simply choose another battle to “refresh” the opponents for free. The only way to keep playing and still earning any decent amount of resources is playing Casual PVP, i do it myself after finishing my climb to Tier 1 for the Ingots. It’s an honest and reasonable suggestion, i’m getting my 2 Talent XP, Ingots, Gold, Glory and one trophy (which doesn’t matters for my guild). If i’m inclined to test out a new build i can play Ranked where i’ll find harder opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Querne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/querne/32/44753_2.png) [@Querne](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Querne)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/69 "2018-09-02T23:25:27Z")
Nay, that´s unfair. In my humble, noobish opinion Razzagor is the voice of reason in this community. That is why people try to throw tomatoes at him every two minutes. Don´t take his comment as an offense. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/70 "2018-09-02T23:39:08Z")
> [@Querne](#): > > In my humble, noobish opinion Razzagor is the voice of reason in this community. ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/1/a/1a7f64e1ea3de0a165ff6bf8adb82c58c0825298.jpeg) I’m not sure if serious… but i offer my input regardless if it’ll be welcome or not. People can interpret it as they prefer, but to take it personnally indicates a bad disposition. I’ll argue with people over some issues, but i’ll also support their opinions in other matters IF i think they are right. This is what the forums are for after all. ---
**Author:** ![Querne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/querne/32/44753_2.png) [@Querne](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Querne)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/71 "2018-09-02T23:54:02Z")
The part with the voice of reason was serious. The part with the tomatoes was not. ---
**Author:** ![Amadan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/amadan/32/7653_2.png) [@Amadan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Amadan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/72 "2018-09-03T00:04:19Z")
When almost all players almost always win almost every game, you stop noticing the wins and instead obsess on the losses. **You’re still almost always winning.** If you play just 20 matches, you have a 2% chance to see an event that happens “once in every 1000 games”. That’s really not that many matches needed before even a 1:1000 chance is plausible! You’ll never, ever remember the times when you went who-knows-how-long without ever seeing it happen, but if it makes you lose a match, that one time will stick out like crazy in your memory. **That still doesn’t mean it’s happening too often**. ---
**Author:** ![Fourdottwoone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/fourdottwoone/32/66655_2.png) [@Fourdottwoone](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Fourdottwoone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/73 "2018-09-03T11:52:28Z")
> [@actreal](#): > > The odds of pulling no Pride from 250 event keys is around 1 in 500. Well, I guess the good news is that it’s unlikely I’ll encounter it again within the next 500 kingdom releases. 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![Slypenslyde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/slypenslyde/32/30373_2.png) [@Slypenslyde](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Slypenslyde)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/74 "2018-09-03T12:46:57Z")
Then let us learn a lesson from this post: It’s best to state the problem and a reasonable solution. Don’t post a hyperbolic solution. Don’t get caught up in defending the hyperbolic solution. No jokes. Just Vulcan-sourced facts. What’s my true suggestion? It’s actually hard to implement. It’s about _feel_. Dark Souls is hard but it _feels_ fair. When I play, I have a sense that if I master the systems it’s not going to throw anything at me I can’t handle. Deadly Towers is famous for being hard and feeling unfair. Too many enemies on the screen, confusing objectives, and bad controls combine to make situations where even experts can be blindsided. I don’t care what it does to win rate. I don’t like the outlier games where an opponent gets upwards of 20 turns to my 3 or 4. GoW would _feel_ better if it didn’t have that. A modest free turn cap like “5 turns” would eliminate the 1 or 2 games per 2 week period where I decide to retreat on Goblins’ 12th free turn. That is a lot of grouchy feelings I won’t feel. That’s a lot of threads like this I won’t make. We’ve all had it happen. Despite the arguments in this thread, none of us are happy with those games. Is it a small problem? Hell yes. But it’s like a loose board or a slightly-poked-out nail on a deck. It’s not a big deal. The fix is low-priority and you’ve got better things to do. But every time you stub your toe on it you think, “Why the Hell don’t I fix that?” The pain it causes is a constant frustration. We all let that kind of thing go on too long. I thought it’d go over better to make a “ha ha give us mythic ingots when this happens” joke. I didn’t foresee how many people wouldn’t receive that well. I guess what happened is people picked up on the obvious “this would introduce dozens of mythic ingots to my week” and then attacked that with zero consideration for proposing alternative, more rational solutions. Because I do not believe for one minute there is a soul out there who gets excited or enjoys this GoW phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Ashasekayi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/ashasekayi/32/61090_2.png) [@Ashasekayi](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Ashasekayi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/75 "2018-09-03T13:43:41Z")
> [@Slypenslyde](#): > > I don’t care what it does to win rate. I don’t like the outlier games where an opponent gets upwards of 20 turns to my 3 or 4. GoW would _feel_ better if it didn’t have that. A modest free turn cap like “5 turns” would eliminate the 1 or 2 games per 2 week period where I decide to retreat on Goblins’ 12th free turn. This suggestion is reasonable. However, judging from the past, even something that reasonable would anger many players if it was the new norm for the entire game. Perhaps, the devs will consider a restricted turn game mode at some point though. ---
**Author:** ![Zepp](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/zepp/32/42136_2.png) [@Zepp](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Zepp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/76 "2018-09-03T14:31:24Z")
> [@Slypenslyde](#): > > I don’t like the outlier games where an opponent gets upwards of 20 turns to my 3 or 4. GoW would _feel_ better if it didn’t have that. Reasonable suggestion. Reasonable outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/77 "2018-09-03T14:34:32Z")
A restriction in extra turns for both sides, the player and the A.I would be fair. If the devs would’ve considered and implemented this design in the past we would already be used to it and the whole design process, up to this point, would already been adjusted to such terms. These days, people are way too happy exploding the whole board and getting extra turns, changing it would cause much more backlash than we get from threads complaining about the A.I also going on an explosion/extra turns rampage. Personally i found some peace, or accepted resignation, in the fact that this is part of the game. I can play it, leave it, or take charge for my own experience now that i got “everything”. ---
**Author:** ![Kurokazna](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/kurokazna/32/11246_2.png) [@Kurokazna](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Kurokazna)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/78 "2018-09-03T17:14:30Z")
> [@Razzagor](#): > > i think it was @Kurokazna who once said, and i quote from memory: `"This is the point of the game where you can challenge yourself by using weaker troops if you want to."` That’s not a very “me” thing to have said, but I’m not exactly known for consistency in very many places. To address this tag without reading the rest of the post first, I’ll correct it to “The only way to challenege yourself is to use less powerful troops, and where’s the fun in not being allowed to use troops that you genuinely enjoy the mechanics of?” I once got into a rather heated argument with a rather high-profile content creator because he couldn’t see the logic behind me not wanting to use the most effective team I had available. One of my reasons was that I do genuinely enjoy the mechanics and gameplay behind that team. And let me tell you, being unable to have fun without completely nerfing yourself into the ground is _exactly why I left this game_. End game is too boring and monotonous when, to pull from someone else you quoted, > [@Changer](#): > > you win 100% of all winnable matches Now onto the actual thread > [@Slypenslyde](#): > > I think there’s a really easy way to put a stop to those threads. In the next update, implement this rule: > > > “Every time the CPU gets more than 8 free turns after a move, the player is awarded a mythic ingot post-game. Every time the CPU makes at least 10 cascades after one move, a Treasure Gnome replaces one of its troops.” > > This is easy and harmless. God. Please. No. That is absolutely horrible on every level. People will complain about not getting it after miscounting seven/nine cascades from the opponent. High end player winrates will get so much closer to 100%. The literal only way for me to lose a match right now is for the AI to get one of those eight or higher cascades, and my teams literally have not been updated since the release of Blackhawk. And you’re telling me that if they hit ten, they basically auto-lose? Plus, it validates all the whining and would drastically inflate the report rate of people getting these things happening to them, and people would realize it far more often, while _even further_ ignoring the times that the algorithm instead gave _them_ those chain cascades. Might I remind you that, unless it has changed, the algorithm _STILL BIASES THE PLAYER IN TERMS OF FAVORABLE GEM MATCHES_! > [@Slypenslyde](#): > > I certainly haven’t seen Goblins get 14 turns followed by 9 turns twice today And I don’t regularly completely close out the opponent, taking upwards of twenty turns in a row. Hell no, that’s not every single game or anything. And there aren’t the odd games that happen where the enemy doesn’t get a turn. **Ring Ring** Oh, it’s Lady Sapphira, reminding me that yes, every time there is a mana surge of red, yellow, or blue (Or Green/Purple/Yellow/Blue if I’m feeling fancy) on the starting board, _exactly that happens_. And it’s not like I’m using a high-investment team. > [@Slypenslyde](#): > > Which is why this proves it’s fair: after a few weeks of this rule, players will realize they aren’t getting any mythic ingots or treasures, which must mean the low-probability events aren’t ever happening. Except that it happens, and it happens more often in the player’s favor than anything. Tell me, how many times today have you had the same things happen to the AI where you get those cascades or extra turn loops? Were you counting that? Where’s the data to counterbalance this? Your observation is heavily biased, and if this change ever gets added to the game, I’m deleting my forum account. I’m not even going to address the rest of this thread. The OP was just too much. Edit: I should also add that things like this would be 100% farmable, because you can set the board up for the enemy to do that more reliably. And trust me, people _would_ farm it, intentionally ruining games for themselves in hopes of getting that guaranteed ingot. I mean, just look at what these fools do with their defense teams, might as well just leave one peasant there if you only want revenge fights on the ladder. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/79 "2018-09-03T17:37:11Z")
> [@Kurokazna](#): > > That’s not a very “me” thing to have said, but I’m not exactly known for consistency in very many places. To address this tag without reading the rest of the post first, I’ll correct it to “The only way to challenege yourself is to use less powerful troops, and where’s the fun in not being allowed to use troops that you genuinely enjoy the mechanics of?” > > I once got into a rather heated argument with a rather high-profile content creator because he couldn’t see the logic behind me not wanting to use the most effective team I had available. One of my reasons was that I do genuinely enjoy the mechanics and gameplay behind that team. And let me tell you, being unable to have fun without completely nerfing yourself into the ground is _exactly why I left this game_ . I probably remembered it wrong, i stand corrected then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lyya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/lyya/32/3650_2.png) [@Lyya](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Lyya)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/80 "2018-09-03T19:51:02Z")
Edited for language. You are free to disagree with the game direction, but please keep it clean. ---
**Author:** ![akots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/13edae/32.png) [@akots](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/akots)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967/81 "2018-09-05T20:32:35Z")
> [@Lyya](#): > > One thing to note is that there are two separate pseudorandom number generators (pRNGs) at play here. The client pRNG is responsible for things that occur within a match — gem creation and fills, AI decision making, respawn/devour/etc. proc chances. The server pRNG is responsible for matchmaking and chest opening. I’ve recently checked the tribute randomness. [Tribute statistics - #40 by akots](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/tribute-statistics/38333/40) Seems like everything is pretty much random there. It also seems that tribute code might run on the server side, not 100% sure though. [Previous page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967.md?page=3) [Next page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/lets-prove-the-ai-is-fair-and-reasonable/44967.md?page=5)