# \[Investigating\] Reflect is Inconsistent in how it treats "incoming damage" **URL:** \ **Category:** Bug Reports\ **Created:** [January 28, 2020, 6:59am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009 "2020-01-28T06:59:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 6:59am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/1 "2020-01-28T06:59:59Z")
If a troop has 10 health left and reflects 50% of skull damage back. Then any 2nd grader could tell you if a player does skull damage resulting in 10 damage being done… That only 5 damage should be reflected back. Well… ![Gems of War_2020-01-28-00-42-01_1](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/7/4/74232d4dd736670328de212f968cb163c8491faa.gif) But if that is working as intended then… ![Gems of War_2020-01-28-03-15-23_2](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/7/9/791573d1c9c158b79dbc6471d07f9b907489ea43.gif) Why is it a barriered troop doesn’t reflect any skull damage? Both would be considered “incoming damage” right? In the first case potential damage is being Reflected. Despite that damage not occuring to that degree. So the damage Reflected back is actually 8 times more than the actual damage being delt. In the second case zero of the potential damage is being Reflected. But the damage still registers because it takes away the barrier. If you have a troop do actual zero damage (as in being entangled) then the barrier will remain. At first I thought the issue was caused by the recent fix to reflect damage. But it turns out it’s more an inconsistency in how the game works as a whole. @ChunkyMono brought this up as a scape goat. ![Screenshot_20200128-120716_Chrome](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/d/3/d39e7c9507da784eb1d451df44e9eeb3771e25b5.jpeg) In that scenario the incoming damage still doesn’t matter like the text reads. But fine… Let’s say it’s working as intended. Then can anyone explain why Gorgothas trait reduces the amount of damage Reflected? ![Gems of War_2020-01-28-12-02-52_1](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/c/3/c334a50e480da544a0b55a65a34688727669e9d2.gif) In the first gif only 10 damage was done but 80ish was Reflected back due to the attack being 160ish. In the last GIF 25 damage is done resulting in 12 damage being Reflected back despite the attack being 100. So if you say it only reflects half of the amount of damage actually done. Then that’s exactly my point. 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Shimrra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/shimrra/32/87_2.png) [@Shimrra](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Shimrra)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 8:36am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/2 "2020-01-28T08:36:46Z")
Its reflecting based on incoming damage instead of damage actually taken. So what. It would do the same sort of thing with Stoneskin. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 8:59am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/3 "2020-01-28T08:59:50Z")
> [@Shimrra](#): > > Its reflecting based on incoming damage instead of damage actually taken. So what. It would do the same sort of thing with Stoneskin. If that’s the case. Then why is it Reflect and barrier cause 0 damage to be reflected? If I cast the Reflection of Good weapon onto my first troop. And the AI does skull damage against it. (Which happens right after the cast 90% of the time). Then zero skull damage is reflected back at the AI due to the barrier. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 9:06am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/4 "2020-01-28T09:06:03Z")
Can’t have it both ways. ![Screenshot_20200128-030359](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/c/6/c6b724f603a608932c9274f6e3bfd9c3b924205c.jpeg) Incoming damage shouldn’t matter what kind of skull reduction or barrier the troop has. It should be purely based on the attack damage then. If it’s working as intended with Gloom Leaf. Then it’s not working as intended against Barrier. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 9:24am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/5 "2020-01-28T09:24:10Z")
I’ve updated the OP. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![ChunkyMono](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/chunkymono/32/69308_2.png) [@ChunkyMono](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ChunkyMono)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/6 "2020-01-28T13:17:09Z")
The dmg isn’t done to the troop; it is done to the barrier. The barrier doesn’t have reflect; the troop does. ---
**Author:** ![Stix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/edb3f5/32.png) [@Stix](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Stix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:33pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/7 "2020-01-28T13:33:54Z")
I can’t tell in the first animation who is attacking. The extra damage is not caused by Gloom leaf’s Thorns? ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/8 "2020-01-28T17:53:27Z")
> [@Stix](#): > > I can’t tell in the first animation who is attacking. > The extra damage is not caused by Gloom leaf’s Thorns? The hero is attacking and Thorns is reflecting the damage back. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/9 "2020-01-28T18:18:39Z")
> [@Shimrra](#): > > Its reflecting based on incoming damage instead of damage actually taken. So what. It would do the same sort of thing with Stoneskin. Updated the OP again to include a GIF that shows the actual damage being taken is reflected back as 50%. Rather than the actual incoming damage. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/10 "2020-01-28T18:25:06Z")
> [@ChunkyMono](#): > > The dmg isn’t done to the troop; it is done to the barrier. The barrier doesn’t have reflect; the troop does. Oh and that doesn’t make sense because of Dodge Traits. A troop that has Dodge can still Dodge skull damage and retain it’s barrier. So if the barrier kicks in first before the traits then it wouldn’t be possible to dodge skull damage and have a barrier up at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![ChunkyMono](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/chunkymono/32/69308_2.png) [@ChunkyMono](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ChunkyMono)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/11 "2020-01-28T19:11:14Z")
But if you have dodge, you’re not going to sit there and wait for my attack to hit your barrier. You’ll try to dodge it first, and fail, cuz I’m that gud. Then I’ll hit your barrier, which still doesn’t have reflect. And I’ll mutter to myself, because I should’ve equipped Banishment so I could’ve dispelled both Barrier and Reflect with that 4 match…maybe. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/12 "2020-01-28T19:45:41Z")
> [@ChunkyMono](#): > > But if you have dodge, you’re not going to sit there and wait for my attack to hit your barrier. You’ll try to dodge it first, and fail, cuz I’m that gud. Then I’ll hit your barrier, which still doesn’t have reflect. So basically the barrier is granted Dodge but not Reflect. Got it. This white board makes more sense… ![tenor (47)](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/8/e/8e0ae0ee85a21c9c1135bed8bc2af7e2faff2469.gif) ---
**Author:** ![ChunkyMono](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/chunkymono/32/69308_2.png) [@ChunkyMono](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ChunkyMono)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/13 "2020-01-28T21:01:14Z")
The barrier doesn’t have dodge, the troop doees. But if my attack misses the troop, it won’t hit the barrier, because I missed both. You moved, the barrier followed you, I swung and missed. No glancing blow, no foul tip. It’s not GW Bracket science. I think you’re making it too complicated. Just don’t ask me to explain why a Guild that scores 0 points only drops 2 brackets, because if I can’t make sense on Barriers, I got no chance with that. Now back to your regularly ‘working as intended’ topic. GL HF ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/14 "2020-01-28T21:30:01Z")
> [@ChunkyMono](#): > > The barrier doesn’t have dodge, the troop doees. My bad. According to you the Dodge trait kicks in before barrier. But the Reflect damage trait or status effect kicks in after barrier. But the damage used to take down the barrier isn’t Reflected. Understood. ---
**Author:** ![Kafka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/kafka/32/33529_2.png) [@Kafka](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Kafka)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 5:30am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/15 "2020-01-29T05:30:11Z")
Tis Gloomleaf with the issue, not the barrier/reflect - going to make doubly sure here and get back to you next week on it. The barrier triggers before the reflect effect does thereby negating damage. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:44am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/16 "2020-01-29T06:44:45Z")
> [@Kafka](#): > > Tis Gloomleaf with the issue, not the barrier/reflect - going to make doubly sure here and get back to you next week on it. The subject was kinda derailed. Just want to make sure that the issue I’m raising isn’t so much about barrier. But potential damage compared to actual damage. I saw Gloomleaf in July just as much then as now and I don’t remember it being an issue. If it is bugged, which seems highly likely at this point… It’s causing Tower of Doom to be a way more difficult event that originally designed. I feel like any guild that finishes in the top 100 this week should have a little extra reward for their troubles. Considering they are the ones who be plagued by the bug the most. Gloom leaf already removes all the armor off anyone in the ultimate Doom room from just one cast. So to have 50% of 100 damage to it Reflected back (even when it’s low on health) is basically insta death for any troop without barrier if it already did skull damage to get GL that low on health already. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/17 "2020-01-31T13:31:40Z")
The Gorgotha gif in the OP is showing the opposite of what’s intended with Reflect, no? > [@4.5 Update Patch Notes](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/4-5-update-patch-notes/57370/1): > > Reflect damage is rounded down, however Reflect will always deal a minimum of least 1 damage (even if the damage that triggered it was 1). Reflect damage is counted as special damage, so damage reduction traits such as Armored or Spell Armor will not apply to the damage dealt by Reflect. ![Gems of War_2020-01-28-12-02-52_1](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/c/3/c334a50e480da544a0b55a65a34688727669e9d2.gif) ---
**Author:** ![agentronin316](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/agentronin316/32/9921_2.png) [@agentronin316](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/agentronin316)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/18 "2020-01-31T14:30:10Z")
The troop receiving the damage from reflect will not benefit from having Armored or Spell Armor. This does not mean Armored/Spell Armor troops will reflect full damage. ---
**Author:** ![Slypenslyde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/slypenslyde/32/30373_2.png) [@Slypenslyde](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Slypenslyde)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/19 "2020-01-31T14:37:42Z")
I just wish we had better documentation of: - The order in which effects are applied. - The _intended_ behavior of how effects interact. It sounds daunting, but so is navigating one of these threads every couple of months when someone can’t sort out how some complicated interactions are supposed to behave. ---
**Author:** ![ChunkyMono](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/chunkymono/32/69308_2.png) [@ChunkyMono](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ChunkyMono)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 7:24am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009/20 "2020-02-02T07:24:00Z")
My Titan with Mang had barrier up, and simultaneously matched Brown and skulls. He did not have barrier after. I’m still waiting for the next opportunity to match both simultaneously without barrier to see if I suicide or the Brown gives barrier before the reflect dmg hits. But then Doomskulls that hit adjacent skulls have those single points counted as separate dmg to be reflected… [Next page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/investigating-reflect-is-inconsistent-in-how-it-treats-incoming-damage/61009.md?page=2)