# I conducted a scientific study on the state of current endgame meta **URL:** \ **Category:** Uncategorized\ **Created:** [August 24, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469 "2016-08-24T05:17:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Personette](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/personette/32/3845_2.png) [@Personette](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Personette)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/81 "2016-08-25T02:46:54Z")
> [@htismaqe](#): > > It’s because they desire VARIETY. Variety–while playing hundreds of matches per week, i.e., constantly courting burnout even under the best of circumstances. In addition: a healthy challenge (but really fast games that are mostly wins), and, oh yeah, satisfying rewards (even though at higher levels you need basically nothing). ---
**Author:** ![HKdirewolf](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/hkdirewolf/32/21614_2.png) [@HKdirewolf](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/HKdirewolf)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/82 "2016-08-25T03:01:59Z")
My thoughts on manticore is that he is annoying nothing more. I don’t use him at all in any of my teams because he’s simply not that fun. I don’t even get why people care as much, when defensive wins barely mean anything in this game. I think the most I’ve lost per D loss was like 9 points? Really not worth worrying about to me. I’m not so concerned with trying to collect all the pieces of the “perfect defense meta” team. I understand that’s what games like these are about and what drives sells and material spending though. I think it’s fun to fight different teams, be creative people. Don’t simply hit the easy button. ---
**Author:** ![Kharybdys](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/kharybdys/32/2023_2.png) [@Kharybdys](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Kharybdys)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 7:43am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/83 "2016-08-25T07:43:35Z")
With the risk of duplicating someone else’s statement… For me, lvl 300ish midgame serious casual player, I would like the meta-game on all level ranges slowed down to at least three, preferably five, minutes per match. This ought to allow more diverse teams the ability to compete, improving variety and thus fun. In the end, fun is the only important measurement, with the important caveat that everyone will have their own interpretation of fun. Mark Rosewater’s articles on game design are a really recommended read. (He is the Head Designer of Magic the Gathering) ---
**Author:** ![Robert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/robert/32/12802_2.png) [@Robert](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Robert)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 8:14am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/84 "2016-08-25T08:14:44Z")
> [@Kharybdys](#): > > I would like the meta-game on all level ranges slowed down to at least three, preferably five, minutes per match That would require quite an increase in rewards in order to maintain some level of progress. It is already an unholy grind! ---
**Author:** ![Draprion](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/draprion/32/8238_2.png) [@Draprion](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Draprion)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 9:41am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/85 "2016-08-25T09:41:22Z")
If it slows down for everyone in a fair manner then that’s fine. Everyone’s progress would be moderated in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Robert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/robert/32/12802_2.png) [@Robert](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Robert)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 10:11am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/86 "2016-08-25T10:11:55Z")
Im more worried about my own progress. Its already too much of a grind ---
**Author:** ![Fifthelement](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/fifthelement/32/8383_2.png) [@Fifthelement](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Fifthelement)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 10:40am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/87 "2016-08-25T10:40:59Z")
> [@htismaqe](#): > > The end-game, not Manticore, needs fixed. Just … no. Manticore needs fixing, pronto, period. > [@htismaqe](#): > > He’s not balance breaking at all. You are right, not at all, it’s a perfectly balanced and reasonable card, that’s why it’s in pretty much EVERY 3-trophy worth defense team 😃 > [@htismaqe](#): > > He’s not overpowered, he’s ANNOYING. Sure sounds like a great reason to start nerfing troops. Manticore is annoying precisely BECAUSE it’s overpowered. Impervious, draining 100% of your mana (not just 5, like spirit fox), EMPOWERED, AND on top of that the re-charge cost is ridiculously low. If you fail to see how stupidly over-the-top that is for a blue rarity card, then I doubt you’ll ever comprehend the point anyone else it trying to make. > [@baller](#): > > I may be the minority but i actually enjoyed the challenge of fighting 3v5 when i got rng’d by maw. truth be told even that was more fun than wasting time on a manticore nonsense. (and if rumors are true, inb4 a new maw + manticore defense teams, at which point I’ll probably just quit the game, because fuck that, if they really decide to go back into the same river twice and release SAME crap as Maw used to be before it got fixed. I thought it’s been talked through and admitted countless times that it’s irrelevant if the skull-proc-devour rate is 25%, 15% or 5%, it’ll end up EXACTLY THE SAME PROBLEM as the old maw was, I really expected more from the decision-makers than that). > [@Ivar](#): > > Playing a game is about fun, and while that’s subjective for each individual perspective the biggest indice that Manticore is not being fun to play against are the complaints of how it recharges it’s own mana too fast to deny our mana/spells and traits. If we “can’t play” the spells we want, the troops that some of us had a lot of trouble to obtain and trait, then our fun is being denied all because of a troop that is much easier to obtain and use. (And Manticore does all that while increasing it’s own attack waiting for a luck skull drop.)So, maybe you would agree that at some point if the battles are filled with Manticores on both sides, ofense and defense in order to get some better results, then there is something wrong with the troop… That. > [@htismaqe](#): > > It makes absolutely zero sense to alter X troop or Y troop for the ENTIRE player base, the vast majority of whom aren’t even represented on these forums, because a FEW end-game players don’t want to be inconvenienced. And let’s be honest, that’s precisely what this is about. It isn’t about balance at all, it’s about convenience. Yeah I wish they could alter the troops for just the part of the player base, then I wouldn’t have to deal with how stupidly overpowered manticore is at the moment, while you could enjoy your martyrdom of dealing with it. Also implying that “the vast majority of players that aren’t represented in the forums” have no problem with manticore is so damn presumptuous of you I just actually laughed for a good minute or two, thank you. What gives you the right to make those claims? IF you bothered to ask around in-game, you’d realise that it’s quite the opposite. Majority of people who aren’t posting here hate manticores guts just as much as those few who bother to waste their time here. > [@htismaqe](#): > > The constant complaints are from the same 5 or 6 people over and over and over again. > > That’s hardly representative of the player base at large. In fact, it’s less than 1% of 1% There you go, I’ll sign up as nr 7. and I can name at least 15 more without even having to pause for another breath. So stop lying about the magnitude of the issue. > [@htismaqe](#): > > The counters aren’t numerous. and that, is one of the symptoms of OP’ness of that broken troop, thanks for making that point. > [@htismaqe](#): > > The contention that Manticore is overwhelming the meta simply isn’t true, not for 99% of the people that play this game. The end-gamers may be suffering from it but this isn’t a meritocracy. Their opinions don’t matter more simply because they’ve played longer than other people. Who exactly are you, that your opinion should matter AT ALL to anyone btw? Just a random thought. No? Didn’t think so. If 99% of the people that play this game are not affected by the manticore (lol at your number-pulling-out-of-your-ass again), then they won’t have ANY problem with it being nerfed. Awesome, problem solved. > [@htismaqe](#): > > It’s pretty obvious that the common denominator is the END-GAME META. Focus on curing the disease, not cutting off the nose to spite the face. oh yeah, lets remove the end game from the game! that’s the spirit (do you even read what you post, before or after at any point?) > [@htismaqe](#): > > Long term viability of the game, and thus the developer, are highly dependent on the **_game remaining fresh and exciting_** With manticore around, it has nothing to do with exciting anymore. It’s boring, tedious and outright waste of time, to play games against that troop, period. > [@Sirrian](#): > > His Mana Cost is a bit low. When we were creating him, our gut feeling was 11 points. Well that’s something I mentioned in the forums at least a week ago, if not longer. But at this point I agree that it’s doubtful that only increasing the cost to 11 will change much. Maybe turning empowered to fast +increasing the cost to 11 could do the trick. Meh, I was going to keep reading and quoting, but htismaqe’s comments come down to: bla bla bla, let the stupidly annoying and overpowered things stay the way they are, because they are draining fun out of the game for other people, and it seems that what he gets his kick out of. In a week we’ll see him defending the new ridiculous maw-comeback troop too. Good job Ivar, thanks for fighting the good fight. And Sirrian if you are reading this, for the love of god, please tell us it was some sort of a prank, and you aren’t actually planning to do the same mistake of releasing a “devour-on-skull-proc” troop again? Wasn’t it YOU who said it wouldn’t make any difference to the issue the Maw presented whatever number you put on the proc rate, it was the trait itself that was broken. And now you’re bringing it back again? ☹ Seriously, I don’t think I’ll see much fun of playing GoW left anymore, the moment manticore+new maw teams start popping up. That will be just the last drop for me, bringing the 2 most ridiculous things this game ever had - maw’s RNG chance of ruining a game with 1 stupid skull match (whichcan happen without you making ANY mistakes, mind you), +manticore making the game long enough to ensure it happens. /yawn ---
**Author:** ![Robert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/robert/32/12802_2.png) [@Robert](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Robert)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 10:56am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/88 "2016-08-25T10:56:12Z")
Praise the lord… ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/2X/c/cf376323ecdba86c19a788ce98e7c7be8eb7b110.jpg) Did you set out to rewrite the bible? @htismaqe made a lot of valid points. Keep your pants on padre ---
**Author:** ![Fifthelement](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/fifthelement/32/8383_2.png) [@Fifthelement](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Fifthelement)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/89 "2016-08-25T11:22:16Z")
![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/2X/e/ede4333edb562d2087a987cb2e0015dd183335f3.gif) Switch your “a lot” with “a few maybe”, and it might work. ---
**Author:** ![Emos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/emos/32/5163_2.png) [@Emos](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Emos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 11:55am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/90 "2016-08-25T11:55:42Z")
Even though we have yet to see it in action, I’m thinking that the new Mini-Maw will be more bark than bite after everything is said and done. First, his Hunger is at a reduced percentage albeit RNG can be a pain. Second, his primary spell seems to go against the idea of using the legendary trait, if you want to summon stuff you don’t want him in first slot. Third, Impervious has really neutered the Devour skill. Run a Manti, Behemoth or other Impervious troop in first slot. Sylvamora can also hold him back with Dragon Vines. This has me thinking, why hasn’t Bullseye and Assassinate taken off in this meta? I would argue that I would prefer to run an Archer or Assassin in place of mini-maw. Bullseye is 15% lethal and Assassinate is 10% as opposed to the new Devour at 5%. Secondly these lethal Hero traits have NO counter except for Stun, they go right thru Impervious. Devour does have the stat stealing but I actually think Archer or Assassin would be better if you want to run a one-shot RNG skull spam team. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Esoxnepa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/esoxnepa/32/1837_2.png) [@Esoxnepa](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Esoxnepa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/91 "2016-08-25T12:51:50Z")
In my opinion, it is the survivability of the hero. Great Maw, had huge, plus the devour, so it had a real chance at surviving. If we get a good way to clear the first slot of the team, while maintaining turn control, we may see these abilities thrive. The hero could sit protected in the second slot until the burst. Right now the hero is just too fragile for the front line. > [@Emos](#): > > This has me thinking, why hasn’t Bullseye and Assassinate taken off in this meta? I would argue that I would prefer to run an Archer or Assassin in place of mini-maw. Bullseye is 15% lethal and Assassinate is 10% as opposed to the new Devour at 5%. Secondly these lethal Hero traits have NO counter except for Stun, they go right thru Impervious. Devour does have the stat stealing but I actually think Archer or Assassin would be better if you want to run a one-shot RNG skull spam team. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Kharybdys](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/kharybdys/32/2023_2.png) [@Kharybdys](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Kharybdys)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/92 "2016-08-25T12:53:17Z")
Doesn’t assassinate trigger regardless of the position of the hero in the team? That’s at least what understood from its description. In other words, Hero could go into third slot and it would still trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Ashasekayi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/ashasekayi/32/61090_2.png) [@Ashasekayi](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Ashasekayi)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/93 "2016-08-25T14:07:23Z")
> [@Kharybdys](#): > > Doesn’t assassinate trigger regardless of the position of the hero in the team? That’s at least what understood from its description. In other words, Hero could go into third slot and it would still trigger. I’m pretty sure people who tried it stated hero needed to be in first slot for it to work. ---
**Author:** ![Lyya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/lyya/32/3650_2.png) [@Lyya](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Lyya)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/94 "2016-08-25T14:14:44Z")
That is correct. Like most on-skull abilities (notably excepting Maw’s Hunger), you need to be the one doing the damage to reap the rewards. ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/95 "2016-08-25T14:23:48Z")
> [@Fifthelement](#): > > You are right, not at all, it’s a perfectly balanced and reasonable card, that’s why it’s in pretty much EVERY 3-trophy worth defense team 😃 Except that he’s not at all. My 3-trophy matches are still 2:1 Maw to everything else. I see Maw, Behemoth, Anariel, BD, Mab, Khorvash, and Sheggra all with much more frequency than Manticore. This contention that he’s being used in EVERY defense team is wholly untrue, and the statistics @Sirrian posted prove it beyond a doubt. [quote=“Fifthelement, post:87, topic:11469, full:true”] There you go, I’ll sign up as nr 7. and I can name at least 15 more without even having to pause for another breath. So stop lying about the magnitude of the issue.[/quote] ROFL. 22 people! It’s over, point proven. I mean after all, I’m currently rank 9,416 on the leaderboards at level 565, with 3,386 points. Which means that I know 100% for certain that there are _ **at least** _ 9,415 other people playing this game. And a whopping .2% (no, not 2%, POINT TWO PERCENT) think Manticore is overpowered. Honestly, I’m not even going to respond to anymore of this. This has gone from mild complaining to full-on spoiled brat temper tantrums. By all means, if you’re not enjoying the game QUIT already. Those of us that are enjoying it would rather continue to do so without reading rants that could have been written by a 12-year old. ---
**Author:** ![Darkness](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/darkness/32/2712_2.png) [@Darkness](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Darkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/96 "2016-08-25T14:52:20Z")
> [@htismaqe](#): > > By all means, if you’re not enjoying the game QUIT already. Or choose to not play against teams with Manticore. Which is what I’m doing at the moment. That essentially means that I (being level 984) am forced to take the 2-trophy option around 70% of the time and the 1-trophy option around 10% of the time, which in all honestly bothers me a bit, but not nearly as much as Manticore annoys me… 😉 That said, should more annoying game mechanics (like cheap, empowered mana drain or devour on skull damage) be introduced into the game then I will indeed follow your suggestion and quit playing Gems of War. I can avoid a single very annoying troop, but if that number increases to 3-5, then I will in all likelihood be forced to fight at least one of them in every single match, which will quickly drain the fun from this game. And since I play games to have fun, I’ll start looking for a new game to play if the direction of the development of this game goes into the opposite direction of fun for me… ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/97 "2016-08-25T14:57:36Z")
The best solution is to figure out why these troops are affecting the end-game players in such a pronounced way, IMO. I don’t REALLY want anybody to quit playing, that’s certainly not the goal at all. And before he jumps in and puts words in mouth again, I’m not suggesting getting rid of the end-game. I’m suggesting that it’s broken and needs fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Robert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/robert/32/12802_2.png) [@Robert](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Robert)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/98 "2016-08-25T15:08:32Z")
Just as a general comment, that may not relate to you, I am very surprised so many people care about trophies as they are completely meaningless ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/99 "2016-08-25T15:09:13Z")
They’re not meaningless for people in competitive guilds. ---
**Author:** ![Ashasekayi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/ashasekayi/32/61090_2.png) [@Ashasekayi](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Ashasekayi)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/100 "2016-08-25T15:10:57Z")
People care about them because many guilds have trophy requirements. If your guild has a requirement of 300 trophies, you surely want to take those 3 trophy matches instead of the others. This is why I don’t even consider any match other than the 3 trophy. [Previous page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469.md?page=4) [Next page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469.md?page=6)