# I conducted a scientific study on the state of current endgame meta **URL:** \ **Category:** Uncategorized\ **Created:** [August 24, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469 "2016-08-24T05:17:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Esoxnepa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/esoxnepa/32/1837_2.png) [@Esoxnepa](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Esoxnepa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/61 "2016-08-24T17:29:42Z")
You do a great job, but, and I hate buts, comparing Tau’s self buff, which is conditional on the death of the unit, isn’t the same as Manticore’s automatic attack gain of 12+. I tried hard to make Tau the front line warrior he should be, but he is too fragile. His ability way too conditional to have him work well. Heck, if you leave Tau’s ability conditional, you could add a full heal to it, and he might see play. Or, go so far as to remove the conditional, add the full heal, and raise the cost, then he might be scary. > [@Sirrian](#): > > 1. His Mana Cost _is_ a bit low. When we were creating him, our gut feeling was 11 points. However, he had 3 things which generally were regarded as not-so-great… Impervious (folks were nervous about it pre-2.0.1, but post 2.0.1 it still wasn’t seeing much use) Empowered Mana Drain (Spirit Fox wasn’t seeing much use), and self-buffing (Tau, anyone?). So we knocked a couple of points off his cost to make him a little more attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/62 "2016-08-24T17:40:41Z")
> [@htismaqe](#): > > Actually, that’s basic statistics and industry best practices. I’m not pulling that out of my ass, that’s the experience of software and technology companies the world over, for the last 40+ years. > [@htismaqe](#): > > The contention that Manticore is overwhelming the meta simply isn’t true, not for 99% of the people that play this game. Hmmm… If you are not pulling these numbers… > [@htismaqe](#): > > Except that literally nobody has said that, certainly not me. Just because I refuse to believe 2+2=5 does not mean I believe 2+2=3. We’re not dealing in binary here, where only 2 opinions are possible. But you insist on saying/implying that the problem is with the End-Game, and players that can’t stand longer battles… > [@htismaqe](#): > > Except that Sirrian just stated that he isn’t even in the top 50 of offensive troops, so obviously it’s not better or at least nobody but you has figured that out. He also said that: > [@Sirrian](#): > > His Mana Cost is a bit low. When we were creating him, our gut feeling was 11 points. But since it was an opinion shared by: > [@htismaqe](#): > > …the same 5 or 6 people over and over and over again. It’s just fine to ignore this _i guess_… > [@htismaqe](#): > > I’m not arguing FOR anything, I’m simply arguing AGAINST the idea that every time a new troop comes out, it needs to be changed because somebody’s sense of nostalgia gets offended. On this i think we already agreed (in the other topic) that it’s not just because it’s new that it needs to be changed. But sometimes things are planned in a way and later some adjustments are needed. So far Sirrian stated that the usage of Manticore seems fine, number-wisely speaking, but when i’m using too much “if” for your taste it’s because i’m mostly foreseeing that it means trouble when you stretch the line of thought towards the future of troops development and how things are usually coming out “Damn that’s extremely good!”… > [@Wargems](#): > > When this reaches consoleDefense has monster manticore? > > Hi!! Empowered gobchomper says hi!! double damage versus monsters. > > Or defense has attack increasing via frenzy or corruption etc then faunessa say hi!! and bye!! Well, Manticore alone is not all you’ll face on the team and the mentioned troops just falls under my personal view that Empowered (and Impervious) are just becoming “a must have” because of the power creep. Faunessa is a little less useful as she needs more time to allow the enemy to get more attack in order to cause more damage. ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/63 "2016-08-24T17:46:01Z")
[quote=“Ivar, post:62, topic:11469, full:true”] But you insist on saying/implying that the problem is with the End-Game, and players that can’t stand longer battles…[/quote] That’s my opinion. I certainly never suggested that it’s the only opinion, simply that the preponderance of the evidence suggests that it’s true. [quote=“Ivar, post:62, topic:11469, full:true”] It’s just fine to ignore this _i guess_…[/quote] I didn’t ignore it anymore than you ignored this: > [@Sirrian](#): > > Feedback so far has been mixed, but slightly more on the negative side, **_mainly from high levels_** , and **_mainly due to him slowing down play_**. ---
**Author:** ![TaliaParks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/taliaparks/32/11738_2.png) [@TaliaParks](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/TaliaParks)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/64 "2016-08-24T17:56:01Z")
> [@Sirrian](#): > > mainly due to him slowing down play. That is no reason for change as it affects everyone equally and players are NOT entitled to “fast” matches. ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/65 "2016-08-24T18:00:26Z")
Exactly how I feel about it. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/66 "2016-08-24T18:05:08Z")
> [@htismaqe](#): > > That’s my opinion. I certainly never suggested that it’s the only opinion, simply that the preponderance of the evidence suggests that it’s true. Your opinion falls under the logic that just because a few people think there is something wrong about Manticore they are wrong? Just because they are few and because we can’t check all the rest? I really want to be sure on your point of view on this one… > [@htismaqe](#): > > I didn’t ignore it anymore than you ignored this: > [@htismaqe](#): > > Feedback so far has been mixed, but slightly more on the negative side, mainly from high levels, and mainly due to him slowing down play. I need you to answer my first questions before i can elaborate the answer for this. Because if the problem is that the feedback of End-gamers is less valuable to you, or the developers at all, in order to make a move to change things, it puts the game in a state where people are doomed to lose their interest in the game because at higher levels things become more and more stale/boring. And if that’s the case **THERE IS A PROBLEM** , no matter how you want to look at it, it’s simple! Now, i’m not saying that **THERE AREN’T PROBLEMS** in the lower/mid-levels of play, or that improving existing troops wouldn’t help all ranges of gameplay, (not the topic but well) but i can hardly see something not being done about Manticore since as it was exposed the troop is too damn good as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/67 "2016-08-24T18:12:04Z")
> [@TaliaParks](#): > > That is no reason for change as it affects everyone equally and players are NOT entitled to “fast” matches. I think it’s down to everyone the choice of faster or slower battles considering the troop’s formation picked, the point is that a more diverse meta would support both equally, not only one or another. Honestly people just got out of a Maw/Mab-fast meta and the reward structure in place “More wins = More rewards and more points = Even more rewards at the end of the week.” doesn’t helps the case. (Maybe this could be the subject of another topic) ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/68 "2016-08-24T18:25:13Z")
> [@Ivar](#): > > Your opinion falls under the logic that just because a few people think there is something wrong about Manticore they are wrong? Just because they are few and because we can’t check all the rest? I really want to be sure on your point of view on this one…[/quote] > > No, my assertion is that the number of people that think something is “wrong” is small. That’s all. > > I’m not suggesting they’re wrong - I’m not an end-game player so I have no idea what their game is like. What I do know is that, at level 555, my game experience appears to be RADICALLY different from theirs and since we’ve been told by the devs that the number of level 1000 players is around 100 (probably more now) logic suggests that their game experience is dictated not by individual OP troops but by something endemic to the end game itself. > > > [@Ivar](#): > > > > I need you to answer my first questions before i can elaborate the answer for this. Because if the problem is that the feedback of End-gamers is less valuable to you, > > Nope. I never said their input is less valuable, to me or to anybody else. I merely suggested that their feedback is not MORE valuable than anybody else’s, which a few here seem to think is the case. > > > [@Ivar](#): > > > > or the developers at all, in order to make a move to change things, it puts the game in a state where people are doomed to lose their interest in the game because at higher levels things become more and more stale/boring. > > This game has a level cap. The fact that it is referred to as the “end game” is obviously self-explanatory. The game has an END. There’s no way to get around that. Even with an influx of new elements, EVERYBODY quits a game eventually and moves on. Catering to a small number of end-gamers in an effort to keep them happy is delaying the inevitable. If the byproduct of catering to them disenfranchises newer players, the company goes out of business. Churn is a necessary contingency in this business. Get used to it. > > [quote=“Ivar, post:66, topic:11469, full:true”]Now, i’m not saying that **THERE AREN’T PROBLEMS** in the lower/mid-levels of play, or that improving existing troops wouldn’t help all ranges of gameplay, (not the topic but well) but i can hardly see something not being done about Manticore since as it was exposed the troop is too damn good as it is. Except that it wasn’t exposed as “too damn good”. Sirrian said quite matter of factly that it APPEARS to be overpowered but it’s certainly not obviously so. In fact, the question of what to do with him is still unknown because the data isn’t definitive. ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/69 "2016-08-24T18:29:11Z")
> [@Ivar](#): > > [quote=“TaliaParks, post:64, topic:11469”]Honestly people just got out of a Maw/Mab-fast meta and the reward structure in place “More wins = More rewards and more points = Even more rewards at the end of the week.” doesn’t helps the case. (Maybe this could be the subject of another topic) Absolutely agree with this and think it’s probably the biggest issue facing this game, whether it’s PvP achievements, the argument as to whether or not maps are worthwhile, and just about every other repeated discussion around here. Progression in this game is too tightly interwoven with time spent. It’s DESIGNED to be a grind. Invades are nearly guaranteed wins and defense are almost guaranteed to be losses. In fact, there doesn’t seem to be any limiting factor to achievement, progression is inevitable as long as you play. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/70 "2016-08-24T18:47:22Z")
> [@htismaqe](#): > > Except that it wasn’t exposed as “too damn good”. Sirrian said quite matter of factly that it APPEARS to be overpowered but it’s certainly not obviously so. In fact, the question of what to do with him is still unknown because the data isn’t definitive. By “exposed” i meant: “…exposed by the players…” i agree that so far Sirrian’s considerations have some strong indicatives for both sides, but i keep wondering if the number usage will increase from now on since we have the Arcanes available on bundles this week, but on the other hand it wouldn’t mean much for the low/average level player since collecting glory is not that easy. (Easier than it was before maybe, but still…) ---
**Author:** ![Wargems](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9de053/32.png) [@Wargems](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Wargems)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/71 "2016-08-24T18:47:28Z")
but toss in 20 damage from scale gaurdian and my siren and its over since most times my siren hits for 17? then recharges and hits again recharges and hits again and by then faunessa is saying can i kill them now? come on just one tiny tap? then its just clean up whats left of the defense team since either siren recharged to kill or siren spawed so many reds or yellows that gobchomper or scale gaurdian hits again and its over. Its a fragile invade team but its fast and chews up most defense teams. I set up my invade teams to counter what ever defense team has waiting i.e. defense has gloom leaf? toss out gorgotha faunessa mercy siren knight team? gorgotha gobchomper keghammer scale gard goblins? lol gorg scale mercy siren mythic three behemoths with a valk? Three empowered gobchompers and one mercy hachoo!" and its over for the defense team. mana drain team? oh ho! match four gems fun with no mana needed celestasia barrier bone dragon freeze moloch suppresion jarl with burn or impervious with mana drain? I call this annoying invade team U MAD BRO? celestasia barrier celestasia barrier moloch supression moloch supression ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/72 "2016-08-24T19:05:14Z")
It’s all good that your teams have success, in theory, but it’s another realm of experience comparing Console and PC/Mobile for the following reasons: - Console is way behind and it’s good that you, and others, have many teams assembled and fully upgraded because things moved slower and you had time to be prepared, but not everyone have all of this yet so it would be wise to take this in consideration. I’m even a little worried about how the transition will be done about the number of troops being added for consoles… - PC/Mobile have more kingdoms, that you guys will soon have too, but it’s possible that your oposition would be stronger than what you are used and things are about to change, of course you as well will have stronger troops, but if i’m not mistaken the next kingdoms will increase more health, armor and attack, so you spell damage will mostly remain the same. ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/73 "2016-08-24T19:06:07Z")
Seems pretty obvious that they’re trying to make matches last longer. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Robert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/robert/32/12802_2.png) [@Robert](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Robert)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/74 "2016-08-24T19:20:32Z")
Im writing these teams down thanks 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Wargems](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9de053/32.png) [@Wargems](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Wargems)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/75 "2016-08-24T19:24:42Z")
ok if its a non impervios team try celestasia jarl moloch venoxia for barrier miasma burning and lowered enemy stats every four gem match with no mana needed. hmm i wonder about trying celestasia and three molochs just to be evil versus impervious mana drainers? hmm i wonder about balls to the wall team? four molochs with suppresion means every four gems match the enemy team loses four of either health attack, armor or magic with no mana needed? Just waiting till manticore hits console to try this. ---
**Author:** ![Razzagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/razzagor/32/50037_2.png) [@Razzagor](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Razzagor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/76 "2016-08-24T19:27:15Z")
Depending of the final objective there are other ways, some would even be lucrative and/or add more resources for guilds. When i started the game there was no gold tax for battles anymore, but it’s normal that F2P games have some sort of energy feature that makes playing too much impossible unless you gather the energy resource in some fashion, usually buying it. If pvp is being conducted too hastly, then it probably crossed their minds the idea of adding some sort of energy token to be spent on each battle as an option. Now, i’m mostly sure that Sirrian has said before that they don’t want to limit people from playing the game. On one hand it would “make justice” to those who can’t play as much as others that everyone has the same number of possible invades, and doing extras would cost something, maybe money, maybe a guild resource to be added. Personally i don’t fully agree with this approach, but it’s a possibility and i wouldn’t be upset if this gets implemented at some point. To some it would even strike as a fair change, because like a real strategy game everyone has the same “moves” unlike the current state where who has more time to make more moves is the “Top 1”. On the other hand the “slower meta” is another possibility, if it’s a thing they are testing with us before using another approach i don’t know… > [@Robert](#): > > Im writing these teams down thanks 😀 A little thing to be added on the suggestion would be Bunni’nog, a troop i think it’s not on Consoles yet. It does fairly well against Knights, Khorvash included. > **[Troops - Gems of War Database](https://gowdb.com/troops/?filter=Bunni%27nog)** > > A list of all troops in Gems of War and their statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Wargems](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9de053/32.png) [@Wargems](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Wargems)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/77 "2016-08-24T19:31:04Z")
Bunni nog ? 5x skull damage versus knights. defense team name Wun wittle knights ---
**Author:** ![Robert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/robert/32/12802_2.png) [@Robert](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Robert)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/78 "2016-08-24T19:38:14Z")
> [@Ivar](#): > > A little thing to be added on the suggestion would be Bunni’nog, a troop i think it’s not on Consoles yet Yep, looking forward to him. Shame about his colours blocking KoS and Bone Dragon… I guess putting him on top of Infernal/Mercy/Sheggra cant go far wrong against knights ---
**Author:** ![Wargems](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9de053/32.png) [@Wargems](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Wargems)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/79 "2016-08-24T19:47:34Z")
evil lol. or bunni nog empowered soothsayer sunweaver mercy and bunni becomes godzilla bunni with magic increases ---
**Author:** ![Stan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/stan/32/29888_2.png) [@Stan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Stan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469/80 "2016-08-24T19:51:06Z")
Also looking forward to him. Not sure how I’ll get the Arcanes to trait him, but I guess that’s what explore mode is for… [Previous page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469.md?page=3) [Next page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/i-conducted-a-scientific-study-on-the-state-of-current-endgame-meta/11469.md?page=5)