# Counters not nerfs? Let's at least have them work **URL:** \ **Category:** Gameplay Chat (PC/Mobile)\ **Created:** [November 28, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907 "2016-11-28T17:43:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ONOPALAVER](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/onopalaver/32/46403_2.png) [@ONOPALAVER](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ONOPALAVER)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/21 "2016-11-28T20:01:33Z")
I think sacrifice wasn´t the problem. lol. For sacrifice maybe a little change. If it kills the first ally, I think make possible new builds. Gar Nok - incredible but yes, with this change Gar Nok could have a good team. Bone Dragon - What about if it´s destroy 50% of armor? Or better. Make the opposite the Meat Dragon:: Steal all attack of an enemy and make skulls accord attack stolen. (bye Manticores) ---
**Author:** ![Esoxnepa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/esoxnepa/32/1837_2.png) [@Esoxnepa](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Esoxnepa)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/22 "2016-11-28T20:02:13Z")
Was it called “Shirts and Skins?” 😉 Seriously though, I wish there was a troop with empowered that I could use to destroy all my armor on my troops. Something like a Giant with flavor text like “Ill fitting armor often drove XXX into a rage, so now he just hits the enemy with it.” > [@Tacet](#): > > I sent an idea to Sirrian the other day of a troop that destroys all allied AND enemy armor when it gets an ability kill. ---
**Author:** ![ONOPALAVER](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/onopalaver/32/46403_2.png) [@ONOPALAVER](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/ONOPALAVER)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/23 "2016-11-28T20:06:33Z")
And what about Apocalypse (New Mythic) Only one attack - Apocalypse (all die also Apocalypse, so draw, so lose) lol ---
**Author:** ![htismaqe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/htismaqe/32/23893_2.png) [@htismaqe](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/htismaqe)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/24 "2016-11-28T20:06:49Z")
Gorgotha doesn’t provide all the much protection against Bone Dragon for a level 1000+. Especially if he gets stunned by Manticore first… ---
**Author:** ![esslee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/esslee/32/103072_2.png) [@esslee](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/esslee)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/25 "2016-11-28T20:46:47Z")
…yes…and whilst you are mucking about with your stealthy Wayfinder and stealthy Spirit Fox who is Mantibore going to bash …then cheap BD fills and it’s bye bye Gorgy 😱 ---
**Author:** ![Kurokazna](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/kurokazna/32/11246_2.png) [@Kurokazna](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Kurokazna)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/26 "2016-11-28T20:51:52Z")
Once more, I will say: > [@Kurokazna](#): > > And that Manticore isn’t draining your other slots either. If it’s not filling, you don’t need to fill your Fox. I think I mentioned at some point that most of these strategies are meant for earlier on in the match, anyway. Once you get past the initial double drain, you still have turn advantage and can start filling your mana generator before they can touch mana, themselves. If Manticore is not a problem, then you can fill your other troops too. ---
**Author:** ![Yyurgas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/yyurgas/32/15019_2.png) [@Yyurgas](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Yyurgas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:48am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/27 "2016-11-29T07:48:28Z")
delete impervious and give manticore alert (immunity to silence) problem solved ---
**Author:** ![Jainus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/jainus/32/34949_2.png) [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:05am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/28 "2016-11-29T08:05:16Z")
> [@Yyurgas](#): > > delete impervious and give manticore alert I’d approve of that, but this thread is not about nerfs… ---
**Author:** ![Lyya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/lyya/32/3650_2.png) [@Lyya](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Lyya)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:10am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/29 "2016-11-29T08:10:21Z")
I swear to poop, every time I see you post I wonder what happened to @Jainus’ ellipses. ---
**Author:** ![Drathas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/drathas/32/7344_2.png) [@Drathas](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Drathas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:55am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/30 "2016-11-29T08:55:54Z")
I’ve used the following a couple of time with success: Dragon Cruncher Queen Isabelle Green Seer Mercy First turn covert to yellows powering seer, then powers Cruncher which devours Bone Dragon. Problem solved. If Cruncher eats he then has meaty attack for the Queen to do more damage. Once Bonie is out of the way this team poses little threat unless lucky skull drops. Maw team or Kerberos works too. Mercy really is the cornerstone against Manitcore teams so you can boost mana quickly and outpace them. Mercy can 1st turn power up three other mana converters of red, green and blue. Use them to power devourers, job done. ---
**Author:** ![Yyurgas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/yyurgas/32/15019_2.png) [@Yyurgas](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Yyurgas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:15am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/31 "2016-11-29T09:15:00Z")
When Maw was a big thing I used “Monster Slayer” Troops with skull generator. I’ll try it against the manticore/bone dragon combo later. Sunweaver \*\*\* mana for skull generator and jinx Savage Hunter \*\*\* for monster slayer and hunter’s mark on dragon or borer Aziris \*\*\* Sheggra \* With 2 low mana cost troops drain shouldn’t be too hard. I’m pretty sure, sunweaver will die in every game 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Jainus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/jainus/32/34949_2.png) [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:35am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/32 "2016-11-29T10:35:24Z")
That’s interesting, but feels unreliable. Luck needed to get a good start and really work… > [@Drathas](#): > > First turn covert to yellows powering seer That needs a good board, else it’s first turn Manticore drains Mercy, or drains whatever you just charged… > [@Drathas](#): > > powers Cruncher which devours Bone Dragon That could be cool but feels a lot rides on a 40% roll on the spell… if it works you’ve won, if not…[quote=“Lyya, post:29, topic:15907”] every time I see you post I wonder what happened to @Jainus’ ellipses. [/quote] At least I’m famous for something… …and yes, @Yyurgas you could be finding your _own_ avatar… ---
**Author:** ![Drathas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/drathas/32/7344_2.png) [@Drathas](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Drathas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/33 "2016-11-29T11:22:23Z")
Yes good start helps, but that is the same for whatever team. I find even without many purple-\>yellow matches it floods the board with yellow gems that even after two drains on Seer there is more than enough yellow matches to compensate. Another team I also use which focuses on taking out Bone Dragon quick is: Templar Inquisitor Mercy Paladin Mercy charges the GI and Paladin for a one/two on Bone Dragon. Once again if there is no 4+ matches there are generally more than enough yellow gems on the board after a Mercy cast to power them up after drained. Also, no troop really has any key traits to worry about the stun status. ---
**Author:** ![Jainus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/jainus/32/34949_2.png) [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/34 "2016-11-29T12:36:03Z")
Nice. Though that’s not really a specific counter to Bone Dragon, your one-two punch would kill most things if you pull it off quickly enough. That’s like saying Maw or Gard are counters - they beat _almost_ everything, they’re not specifically designed to take on Bone Dragon… ---
**Author:** ![Yyurgas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/yyurgas/32/15019_2.png) [@Yyurgas](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Yyurgas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 12:42pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/35 "2016-11-29T12:42:51Z")
I think countering the team with bone dragon is something different than countering the troop alone. Khopeshi with 7 Mana to pull him to the front can be nice Or a lot dusk devils 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jainus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/jainus/32/34949_2.png) [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/36 "2016-11-29T15:02:56Z")
Nice avatar pic 🙂 and topical… ---
**Author:** ![Spherix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/spherix/32/2388_2.png) [@Spherix](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Spherix)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/37 "2016-11-29T16:58:34Z")
I raised the question of what would even hypothetically counter Manticore back in one of the other threads about it, and nobody bothered to answer. My problem with Manticore, now as much as before, is that it’s so versatile, that every weakness is covered, or focusing on one weakness still leaves it the opportunity to exploit its other strengths. Drain and deny it mana? It only takes 9 to fill, so in a turn or two, it’s full again, and you’ve gained nothing. Misdirect it, and it still receives a monstrous attack boost, leaving you vulnerable to skulls, and you no closer to responding. Impervious flat out denies using status effects like entangle and freeze to counter its strengths. Yes, Manticore can be countered if you’re skilled, lucky, or both. But the margin of error is very slim. You need to very carefully manage the board and your own mana, all to counter an ultra-rare troop, and if you get a bad board, you don’t necessarily have a choice which troops get mana. I think it’s far easier to imagine possible counters to Bone Dragon. Troops with most of their skill budget in life, and no armor, would be useful as counters both to BD and True Damage. A spell to preemptively steal your own troops’ armor to power an attack or life gain would eliminate the skull spam. Pull to front + entangle would be a great counter, if they could actually make it work reliably. Removing or converting brown is good counter to the Deep Borer part of the chain. All that said, here’s my current counter team. I’m sure it’s terrible, and could easily be improved, but it is working for me. Abyssal Banner Sylvasi Lady Anariel Spirit Fox Succubus Since Manticore is immune to entangle, as well as almost everything else via Impervious, and the attack boost gives me so much trouble, I went looking for a focused attack drain. Nobend Brothers are too unreliable, as well as anything that targets a random skill, like Ghiralee. Owlbear’s attack debuff is a non-scaling 2, and Ghoul’s a non-scaling 1. Warhound and Sylvasi are basically the only reliable, viable source of attack debuffs. Sylvasi has Stealthy, a natural counter to a targeted drain like Manticore, can steal his attack boost, and converts blue to purple, giving him the ability to power other troops and gain an extra turn, if the board is amenable, providing an opportunity to counter-attack. His primary weakness is that he’s a fragile lead with no skull-damage-reduction trait. Putting him behind something may be a good strategy, particularly since he has Avenger, but the more you cast his spell, the more likely the lead isn’t going to die. I decided to look for life gain, and since Anariel takes purple, and generates green, she seemed like a good fit. It’s not a particularly good loop, however, because Sylvasi converts away one of the colors Anariel generates, reducing the chances of an extra turn, and increasing the risk of handing the enemy a lot of green. Spirit Fox covers preventing Manticore from casting by simultaneously draining most of its mana, and removing one of its colors from the board. Needing and creating green for both Sylvasi and Spirit Fox is a liability, however, as that’s Manticore’s other color, so it still has plentiful opportunities to charge. Succubus is there mostly as filler, to absorb extra red and purple, and to drain and potentially kill Bone Dragon. I considered several others to fill the slot: Dark Song for extra targeted damage on Manticore Faunessa is a natural counter to high attack troops, or attack buffs Ferit would fill a very similar role as Succubus, draining and damaging Bone Dragon in the last slot Keeper of Souls to maximize the use of Sylvasi’s stolen attack Summoner for more life, as well as replacing Sylvasi if he dies I went with Succubus for the flexibility, because having a second drain is useful when there are so many dangerous targets. When the team works, it works very well, maintaining control over the board, keeping all your spells ready to fire, and mowing them all down with skulls, while being relatively safe from retaliation. However, it’s slow, has poor color coverage, and the board can be awfully uncooperative for either Sylvasi or Anariel’s spells, causing you to either hold off on casting, or losing control. ---
**Author:** ![Jainus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/jainus/32/34949_2.png) [@Jainus](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Jainus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/38 "2016-11-29T17:46:23Z")
> [@Spherix](#): > > I raised the question of what would even hypothetically counter Manticore back in one of the other threads about it, and nobody bothered to answer Didn’t see that or I would have responded. The obvious counter would be traits with immunity to mana drain: - Mana Shield should protect against Mana Drain - so should Alert, as its otherwise rubbish - Impervious _should not_ - and add a legendary with a global trait that protects all allies from mana drain (and maybe something else) …that’d help. No more stalling and tedium… ---
**Author:** ![Yyurgas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/yyurgas/32/15019_2.png) [@Yyurgas](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Yyurgas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907/39 "2016-11-29T17:48:41Z")
> [@Yyurgas](#): > > Sunweaver \*\*\* mana for skull generator and jinx > Savage Hunter \*\*\* for monster slayer and hunter’s mark on dragon or borer > Aziris \*\*\* > Sheggra \* I tried this team 5 times with only sunweaver at high lvl (got a 6K rating for the team) and every match was nice against the mantis with 7-8K rating. It can get slow if you dont find skulls on the board. With monster slayer to kill the mantis in 2 shots and hunter’s mark to kill borer and dragon, imo the team is good. [Previous page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/counters-not-nerfs-lets-at-least-have-them-work/15907.md?page=1)