# 5.0 Stream Discussion thread (unofficial) **URL:** \ **Category:** Gameplay Chat (PC/Mobile)\ **Created:** [July 7, 2020, 12:59pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610 "2020-07-07T12:59:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![xolid99](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/xolid99/32/66856_2.png) [@xolid99](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/xolid99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/123 "2020-07-09T13:23:48Z")
> [@Fourdottwoone](#): > > Actually, GoW revenue in the F2P group went up from 3,313 in 2019 to 3,968 in 2020. 19,77% increase, that’s nothing but spectacular, especially for a game already running this long. I guess when the regulars around here say “devs need to eat too” they really mean “devs should get a share of the huge profit the game they worked on is raking in”. Indeed. Anyone can, and I have googled and datamined a fair bit of information, like the almost quadrupling of the share price (dropped slightly since Covid19) and the gross revenue taking into account asset stripping/buying contracts out and amortising/consolidating capital/debt etc. It just needs to be out there to provide context. ---
**Author:** ![Lyrian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/lyrian/32/61071_2.png) [@Lyrian](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Lyrian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/124 "2020-07-09T14:09:34Z")
Careful with the analyses, here. Operating performances are more than just top-line revenues, alone. Any business can make millions of dollars of revenue. But if they are not turning a profit, they are still going bankrupt. > [@Vasilisk](#): > > So i agree, it’s not about leaving the lights on, it’s corporate greed and their year on year growth targets Case in point, here. ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/6/c/6c4cea622058f0c96d850f4982b13c43f8a6796d.png) Looks great, for GoW, from this snippet alone that looks only at top-line revenues. > [@Fourdottwoone](#): > > I guess when the regulars around here say “devs need to eat too” they really mean “devs should get a share of the huge profit the game they worked on is raking in”. Ok, let’s check the bottom-line of the Profit and Loss statement for the F2P group… ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/2/f/2fbfd1b2ee0d812a86a2a818ed484562b2c1bfaa.png) EBIT (Earnings Before Interest and Taxes) is negative 82 thousand??? Losing money??? What happened here? There’s those little problematic issues called expenses that have to be dealt with. Labor costs, server costs, development costs, and so on. While the expense breakdowns by individual games are not given, they are quite substantial. ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/a/f/af620de6c69f501b66697066896e7e8b32b13d85.png) ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/e/8/e8285bbf20f278338ad5fa1ad8f6162ecb0bba83.png) It’s very likely the majority of these expenses are tied to GoW. The developer is likely investing in GoW to keep the entire F2P portfolio afloat, as well as develop its only successful game in the F2P category. I’m skeptical if any of the other games in the portfolio are even profitable at such low revenue generation. Is GoW doing okay? Probably. Are they rolling in money? I very much doubt it. Their expansions onto other platforms and countries (Russia, China) probably add very significant development burdens that have to be continually maintained. If GoW continues to grow, that’s going to incur additional expenses, and new sources of revenue are going to be needed. ---
**Author:** ![Smash](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/smash/32/5574_2.png) [@Smash](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Smash)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/125 "2020-07-09T14:11:43Z")
Just wanna piggy back here, Australia is known for its high cost of living and salaries. Melbourne itself isnt a cheap place either, and with an office there the cost of just having the office would already be significant ---
**Author:** ![Fourdottwoone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/fourdottwoone/32/66655_2.png) [@Fourdottwoone](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Fourdottwoone)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/126 "2020-07-09T14:39:20Z")
> [@Lyrian](#): > > It’s very likely the majority of these expenses are tied to GoW. The developer is likely investing in GoW to keep the entire F2P portfolio afloat, as well as develop its only successful game in the F2P category. I’m skeptical if any of the other games in the portfolio are even profitable at such low revenue generation. Looking at this a little more closely, a huge chunk of the expenses are from increased labor cost: ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/3/d/3db36ef1b80756c5255bd9bbe81863f6b4ff330b.png) Up by 29.9%. I somehow doubt that the GoW devs all got such a huge raise, or that they hired a bunch of additional GoW devs. This might be related to a new dev team working on some other not yet released game, they mention a “Hawken series video game whose launch is scheduled for next year” as part of F2P. We’d really need to see the GoW related numbers to understand where the all that GoW revenue ends up at. It’s still an interesting analysis that deserves a +1. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![xolid99](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/xolid99/32/66856_2.png) [@xolid99](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/xolid99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/127 "2020-07-09T14:46:10Z")
> [@Lyrian](#): > > Is GoW doing okay? Probably. Are they rolling in money? I very much doubt it. Their expansions onto other platforms and countries (Russia, China) probably add very significant development burdens that have to be continually maintained. If GoW continues to grow, that’s going to incur additional expenses, and new sources of revenue are going to be needed. All valid points and in the entirity of the post. If you look at the 2015 accounts, at page 31 you will get this gem; ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/8/3/83994ffdd4d618fa75543bed6bed1b514c536078.png) See the bit about revenue from sales increasing by 538 million euros (historically). If you look at the 2019/2020 gross revenue, let’s call it 7 million Euro and the gross profit which is 1.08 million Euros and later investigate the rest, you will see that the money spent by the group has been on buying companies, taking on losses, amortising and consolidating, including it seems paying out/buying out contracts. Corporate takeoever (buying companies in adminstration or close to it, tax issues, VAT etc) buying things that are in trouble, which can be profitable for cheap. Therefore the group is absorbing all of that eexpenditure, becoming larger and larger, earning more money and paying shareholders 9 monthly dividends and had a revenue of nigh 7 million Euro, and posting a huge profit at the time of it’s biggest ever increase and expenditure. Also there is a contractual asset through the sale of Payday2 of 40 million Euros incorporated. The share price bottomed at 6.42 Euros and is today trading at 21.35 Euros. Hardly a company that is running a dynamo from a bike to power them up, which gets peddled (pardon the pun) in the message devs have to eat. One shareholder has 30,243 shares and institutional shareholders are over 45% of the 100% available for shares. Therein lies the next part, the Elite system generating as much revenue possible for the group via the hugely profitable Gems of War. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 3:18pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/128 "2020-07-09T15:18:52Z")
> [@Lyrian](#): > > If GoW continues to grow, that’s going to incur additional expenses, and new sources of revenue are going to be needed. Outside of companies like Amazon and other big boys. It’s important to keep in mind that every company between now and this time next year are going to have a down year. So any actual profit right now is most likely being sat on to insure payroll and pay overhead. So as I eluded to, to others earlier in the week. Does a small business need money right now? Yes! Is Infinity Plus 2 a small business? Yes! That’s just common (not mythic) sense. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/129 "2020-07-09T15:21:12Z")
> [@xolid99](#): > > Therein lies the next part, the Elite system generating as much revenue possible for the group via the hugely profitable Gems of War. Keep in mind though all that profit goes to 505 games. How much of the money Infinity Plus 2 sees is anyone’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![xolid99](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/xolid99/32/66856_2.png) [@xolid99](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/xolid99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/130 "2020-07-09T15:37:10Z")
> [@awryan](#): > > Keep in mind though all that profit goes to 505 games. How much of the money Infinity Plus 2 sees is anyone’s guess. Digital Bros is 505’s parent company, it is they that own the profits to distribute. So IP2 are the engine, the people tasked with generating revenue. Here’s another link with the group looking at another buyout 36 million euros. > **[505 Games parent company moves to acquire Starbreeze assets  - MCV/DEVELOP](https://mcvuk.com/business-news/505-games-partner-company-moves-to-acquire-starbreeze-assets/)** > > "Digital Bros considers the increase of its interest in Starbreeze AB as a step enabling the Group to exert greater control" I think from the forum’s point of view, it is necessary to post this information so we see it’s all part of the mega corporate machine making money hand over fist, against the context of what we are potentially paying for. I think we could examine it further with all the things stripped away from the game for players, to where we are heading. It just doesn’t sit well with me finding this. If you note, it’s not advertised anywhere who is actually the parent company, as far as I am aware. Edit it’s this bit in that link that should be considered… “In the light of the existing business relationship, Digital Bros considers the increase of its interest in Starbreeze AB **as a step enabling the Group to exert greater control over the corporate strategy of Starbreeze AB going forward** ,” it said via press release. ---
**Author:** ![Rhissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d26b3c/32.png) [@Rhissa](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Rhissa)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/131 "2020-07-09T15:43:34Z")
Does a F2P game with online services and content updates need monetarization? I hope we don’t need to argue about the answer here. Do you still have fun playing GoW and is $10 a reasonable price for the Elite pass? Everyone will have to answer this for her-/himself. I don’t care if the money goes to Infinity+2 or 505 games or if Stripes is burying it in the backyard, as long as they pay their taxes. If you find it unethically that a company makes profit, better go and tighten up your tinfoil hat. ---
**Author:** ![Rhissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d26b3c/32.png) [@Rhissa](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Rhissa)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/132 "2020-07-09T15:50:21Z")
> [@xolid99](#): > > I think from the forum’s point of view, it is necessary to post this information so we see it’s all part of the mega corporate machine making money hand over fist, against the context of what we are potentially paying for. No, it doesn’t mean anything. It does not matter at all if GoW is made by one coder or EvilMegaCorp Inc. Either GoW on its own is making profit, or it will be shut down sooner or later. Even if they are making billions with …Death Stranding/Payday 2/whatever… wtf has this to do with this game? ---
**Author:** ![xolid99](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/xolid99/32/66856_2.png) [@xolid99](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/xolid99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/133 "2020-07-09T16:02:44Z")
> [@Rhissa](#): > > No, it doesn’t mean anything. It does not matter at all if GoW is made by one coder or EvilMegaCorp Inc. Either GoW on its own is making profit, or it will be shut down sooner or later. Even if they are making billions with …Death Stranding/Payday 2/whatever… wtf has this to do with game? You’ve not read the links or posts have you ? It is making money, it’s making significant money, and the parent company wants more, so the game is asking for more money, alongside what it makes. That’s good, great in fact for them, but it’s most certainly not ‘devs need to eat’ or some pitiful scenario that seems to get portrayed anyone makes an argument that we must continue to support the devs. ---
**Author:** ![Rhissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d26b3c/32.png) [@Rhissa](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Rhissa)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/134 "2020-07-09T16:08:32Z")
> [@xolid99](#): > > You’ve not read the links or posts have you ? It is making money, it’s making significant money, and the parent company wants more, so the game is asking for more money, alongside what it makes. I’ve read the financial report of March 2020, and their F2P division has a negative EBIT. We don’t know if this is from running GoW (unlikely), or if they are investing in other projects (more likely), but for heaven’s sake, please google the difference between revenue and profit. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/135 "2020-07-09T16:08:49Z")
> [@xolid99](#): > > I think from the forum’s point of view, it is necessary to post this information so we see it’s all part of the mega corporate machine making money hand over fist, against the context of what we are potentially paying for. And if the reverse was true? If 505 was losing money then would it be Infinity Plus 2’s responsibility to make more money? You see it as even distribution of wealth. I assure you anyone with any sense of economics will assume the opposite. And no posting the info publicly will only will only “confirm” ones own bias. If an individual doesn’t want to spend money then they’ll see it and assume that the company is doing great therefore doesn’t need their money. Where as others may see that info and dismiss it as $4 million euros revenue doesn’t tell you the whole story. All the information does it folks something new to argue over. Just adds fuel to the fire. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:12pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/136 "2020-07-09T16:12:06Z")
> [@Rhissa](#): > > but for heaven’s sake, please google the difference between revenue and profit. Here’s a basic lesson for those who can’t bother to use Google. If I have a lemonade stand that sells cups for 50 cents and I sell 10 cups. Then my revenue is $5. However. Since the lemonade and the cups cost (not including my time) $7.00. I ended up losing $2 and not making any profit. Despite my $5 revenue. ---
**Author:** ![xolid99](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/xolid99/32/66856_2.png) [@xolid99](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/xolid99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/137 "2020-07-09T16:16:14Z")
> [@Rhissa](#): > > I’ve read the financial report of March 2020, and their F2P division has a negative EBIT. We don’t know if this is from running GoW (unlikely), or if they are investing in other projects (more likely), but for heaven’s sake, please google the difference between revenue and profit. Have you read all the bits where they bought and sold companies? That came out of their operating costs. Amortising and consolidating debt pickups, that’s previous years costs on this years accounts - a lot of depreciation in asset for example. They paid off taxes for some of the companies. Like Payday was running a loss. That’s a lot of the difference between their revenue and profit (in other words costs). That they still made 1.079 million profit is pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![xolid99](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/xolid99/32/66856_2.png) [@xolid99](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/xolid99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/138 "2020-07-09T16:51:30Z")
> [@awryan](#): > > Here’s a basic lesson for those who can’t bother to use Google. > > If I have a lemonade stand that sells cups for 50 cents and I sell 10 cups. Then my revenue is $5. > However. Since the lemonade and the cups cost (not including my time) $7.00. I ended up losing $2 and not making any profit. Despite my $5 revenue. Very true. Here’s fact ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/a/6/a641037fffbeb1f316b6d7d2366b84cb739b4cbe.png) Half year report 2019/2020. The associated costs included previous years sales and transactions, depreciation on assets they once had and buying out contracts and companies. In other words, business is good, ask the shareholders with a 300% profit even accounting for Covid (Italy’s revenue was effected by Covid19 as they were effected earlier than others and it crept into this years financial’s). Which is what I said when I said still making money, despite a backdrop of significant investment and buying debt, selling off. For example; ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/f/4/f43f12aadbafa1474914e8960e048d82323b7d26.png) Huge investments effecting half yearly financials, but particularly good. Then there is this; ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/gemsofwar/original/3X/0/f/0f0027d1359903460f9f51992d758d6956d5cb8e.png) As you should know, I’ve posted my thoughts about value for return as a paying customer. Everyone has their own bias/opinion/logic. I just don’t subscribe to this argument that GOW is poor and we must invest, it’s clearly not and that is a fact. I’m probably in the camp that everyone should pay something for GOW too. I suppose the debate is getting convoluted. Not the intention 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lorien1973](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/lorien1973/32/75546_2.png) [@Lorien1973](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Lorien1973)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/139 "2020-07-09T16:58:14Z")
You know where I go for financial analysis? A video game forum. ---
**Author:** ![Denthegod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/denthegod/32/69138_2.png) [@Denthegod](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/Denthegod)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/140 "2020-07-09T17:15:10Z")
Yeah I saw that, too. The guy is too busy playing GoW to think up new material so he just copied and pasted it. ---
**Author:** ![awryan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/awryan/32/74650_2.png) [@awryan](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/awryan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/141 "2020-07-09T17:16:47Z")
> [@xolid99](#): > > Which is what I said when I said still making money, despite a backdrop of significant investment and buying debt, selling off. For example; Who’s making money? Digital Bros? 505 Games? Infinity Plus 2? Sirrian? Son of Sirrian? If the discussion was whether or not the parent company is okay. Then sure. But Infinity Plus 2… The actual makers of Gems of War. Is not a parent company. Is not a game publisher. They are a development studio. In fact they have at least one more game out there that could of lost money last year. I don’t remember the name and didn’t see it in the report. > [@xolid99](#): > > I suppose the debate is getting convoluted. Not the intention 🙂 What was the intention then? Beyond “show and tell”? ---
**Author:** ![xolid99](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.gemsofwar.com/xolid99/32/66856_2.png) [@xolid99](https://community.gemsofwar.com/u/xolid99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610/142 "2020-07-09T17:26:08Z")
> [@awryan](#): > > What was the intention then? Beyond “show and tell”? What’s the problem with showing the information then? If it’s fact and not conjecture… [Previous page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610.md?page=6) [Next page](https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/5-0-stream-discussion-thread-unofficial/64610.md?page=8)